Senator Bukola Saraki, former governor of Kwara State and the heir of the Saraki political dynasty, in this interview with a Correspondent in Abuja, speaks on the ground-breaking statement of the Senate on the Pension Task Team chairman and the role of his committee in compelling oil giants to treat the country as they do other countries of the world. Excerpts…

Do you have any regret on the invitation of Zimbabwean farmers to your state?

The step that we took on agriculture in Kwara State when I was governor was based on our belief that commercial farming is the way forward in trying to revolutionalise agriculture in Nigeria. On whether I have any regret about that, I would say no because I think I have been vindicated about that, because the present situation has shown that as the way forward if we really want to develop agriculture in Nigeria. If you remember, at that time, we went through a lot, as people were attacking the policy, saying it was not about commercial farming; they said all the investment should be to the small-scale famers, and I said the two must go together, particularly being driven by commercial farmers. I am happy today that the Minister of Agriculture is speaking the same language, and in the national policy, the transformation agenda of Mr. President is all driven by commercial farming. If we had been doing that in all the states, I think we would have achieved a lot more than what we have done now. Agriculture is not a social programme; it must be seen as a business. I think, over the past years, it has always been seen as a kind of social programme; that is to say, we would provide fertilisers to the farmers, provide seedlings, tractors and we don’t expect anything back as a business. But the way it is seen now by the Ministry of Agriculture was what we decided that we must see it as a business and think of how to make it viable, productive and move on to agro-allied industry. I am happy that in Kwara we are still moving along that line. The state is today, through the Songhai farm project, building the second largest rice mill production in the country. As you saw sometimes last year, the first export of cassava chips came from the farms in Kwara. But we still have challenges; the major challenge is financing, and I think the Ministry of Agriculture needs to continue giving that support to other states who have this kind of agenda to encourage large-scale farmers that will come and take some of these sectors, so that we can stop having import bill of $5 billion or $8 billion a year. It is inexcusable, and from that point of view, I do not have any regret. We set the pace and we have shown that it is the way forward.

What is delaying the consideration of the report of the probe of the fuel subsidy scam which motion you moved on the floor of the Senate?

A committee was set up and the chairman of the committee has laid the report. So the normal process is to go into debates and consider the report. That is what we are waiting for. The committee has done its job and we are sure that very soon it will come up for consideration.

What is the Globe Nigeria Chapter that you launched recently is all about?

We sometimes make mistakes at some of the summits on climate change and environmental issues that we go. We find out that a lot of countries sign communiqué, MoU or declarations. But once they leave that convention, that is the end, because they are not backed by any legislation. You later find out that in some of these conventions, you see members of the National Assembly going as well. I attended too and I asked myself what I was doing there. We made declarations that we were going to address carbon emission and climate change, but at the end of the day, what did we do to domesticate some of these declarations? There must be a forum where legislators work with the executive to see that the commitments made at the summits are backed up by an agenda to see that they become reality. During my investigation, I found out that there is an organisation called Globe International. It is made up of legislators across the globe and they sit down to look at some of the positions that different countries have taken and see if they have the law in their home countries to support those declarations. We discovered that it is important that we are part of that, because that is what will give meaning to some of these meetings that we go, otherwise most of those things are just pronouncements. That is why people cannot feel the impact of some of these environmental issues. We think that being a member of the Globe, we can learn from other people some of the laws that we need to pass that have to do with climate change.

What is your take on the merger plan by opposition parties and the fever in the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) over it?

In theory, if five or more parties put their forces together, they are surely meant to be stronger; but in practice, it is not based on any ideology or understanding. So my initial feeling is that they are going to have challenges. But at the same time, as a party, it is not that we should take it for granted that they have come together. It means that what we are having is more like two parties in a state, and like in any democracy, you just need to be careful because their aim is to wrest power from the PDP. So PDP herself must take it seriously. I think it is too early to comment on the merger because it is just a pronouncement. But when we start talking about the development of the party, the principles and others, challenge comes – may be six months down the line when I begin to see the chapters being set up where you have ACN, CPC, ANPP, in a place like Kano. Let me see how this APC will work in Kano whether it will remain APC or A will go one way, P will go one way or C will remain. But if APC can stay APC in Kano, then I will tell you that we need to sit up. However, my feeling is that going by previous experiences, I think that A will stay apart, P will stay apart and C will stay apart. C will not give to A, and A will not give way to P. But at the end of the day, if they can stay together, it is good for democracy; as we are the ruling party, it will keep us on our toes because we will know that this is a formidable opposition.

The Petroleum Industry Bill (PIB) has been sent to the Senate. What is delaying its consideration and passage?

I think the problem with the PIB is that there are so many things that were taken out at the same time. There are lots of reforms and changes, and I believe that it is the volume of some of these changes that is making it look very controversial; there are too many issues. What I think might have made it easier was that if we had broken it down to different sections; we could have taken administrative and institutional framework, then looked at the issue of power and fiscal. I think we are trying to right the wrongs of four decades in one year and that is the challenge that we are having. It is difficult to pass even an amendment to a bill not to talk of something as extensive as the PIB. But I think we should not shy away from the responsibility we have to address. So, it is not a controversy per se; it is just that there are so many issues. Definitely, in that kind of scenario, people will talk and have different opinions. I believe that we should make a stab at it and try as much as possible to see that we are successful in passing the PIB. What I would not want, and that is what I am campaigning for, is for us not to keep it in abeyance again, just like what has happened in the last two years. The damage is not the PIB passed or not; the damage is uncertainty because as long as investors in that sector do not know what the terms of engagement are, they are not going to invest in it. For as long as they don’t invest, that sector is not going to improve. My take is that we should pass it as amended or keep it in the cooler for review in three, four or five years. But doing nothing is holding back that sector. I think we need to be patient with the process and address the important issue. For now, the talk has been more on what power one has got or not, while the fiscal issue, which is the key issue, is not what we are talking about. We are sensationalising the issue. I think we need to be a bit more professional in our approach; we need to be more business-like and not politicise the issues. That is why I said it is such a huge chunk. But it is a bit late now. We should try and work through what we have and ensure that it is passed and that we made wide consolation in the process.

Why is it taking so long to consider the fuel subsidy report?

These are the kinds of innuendoes I think those of you (reporters) in the Senate should be above. Before now, I am sure it is the same kind of thing that you might have had about (Abdulrasheed) Maina and the pension (task team) probe. Many thought there was a kind of cover-up or sort, but today I am one of the happiest persons in the Senate because some of us were beginning to think the same way you are thinking. But I think the fact that the motion was brought by the deputy Senate president showed that the leadership is much interested in it, as far as I am concerned. To come forward with a motion like that shows to Nigerians that there is no cover-up. The Senate has spoken very loud and clear on this issue, and we need to see it like that. If we can do that on pension, which has even more drama than the fuel subsidy, I have no doubt that, with time, the fuel subsidy report will come out. I think the issue at the time was that because the House of Representatives was already doing it, there is the unwritten practice that once one chamber is working on something, you should allow that chamber to finish its own process. So I am confident that if you doubted for a second the capacity or the sincerity of the Senate to address it head-on, I think what we have done on the issue of pension and Maina showed that there is no case at all that we are ready to sweep under the carpet. If necessary, we might be, as you think, a bit patient in our style; but at the end of the day, we will do what is right. So, definitely, on the issue of the fuel subsidy, be assured that the right thing will be done.

What are you doing about the issue of oil spillage?

I think this Committee on Environment has really taken some good steps. We are the first committee, for a very long time, to visit some of these sites. We have been to Ogoni and we have been able to call some of these oil companies to order. If you are at the last session we had with Shell, we are the first to extract from Shell some commitment that those Ogoni sites, Bunu and Bodo, are going to be addressed this year. The other two, which they claim they had no access to, we had no problem. But that is a major step. Secondly, we had brought the amendment of Industrial Law to address the issue of penalties and compensations. Why people go away with it is because we do not have the law. Last time, we had the Bonny spill, I mean Bongo spill of close to 40,000 barrels. Apart from cleaning it up, there is no law in Nigeria that mandates Shell to pay fine after cleaning up the spill. That is why America is different, and that is why BP will continue to pay billions of dollars in America – because there are laws that categorically say that if you spill, apart from cleaning, you have penalties to the state, the local government, to the people, the community and the environment. By the time you add all those penalties, they run into billions. We don’t have that law. You have laws that is clear on compensation; it is not that the company will say come take some blankets, take some rice. It is clear that if I live on that community and you spill and it is confirmed, you have penalty compensation to me as an individual. That is why I moved for the amendment of the Industrial Law to make that provision. If we pass that amendment, an individual in any of those oil producing communities does not need to go all the way to Hague to fight for their right because they are very clear on what is due to the community. These are giant steps that our committee is taking, and it is the first time that some of those oil companies have been called to order. Some of these steps we are taking are not making us popular with the oil companies, but I know definitely there has been change of attitude, at least by majority of these oil companies. They now know that there is a committee that is serious, a committee doing oversight on their activities, and for sure they have to do the right thing. It is a change of attitude as far as I am concerned. In Europe, in South America, they have to behave themselves; but in Nigeria, they didn’t need to behave because Nigerians allowed them. We cannot blame them, but we have to blame ourselves. They are the same companies, the same guys, the same operating manual. If you are in an environment that allows it, what do you expect?

What of funding?

For now, we are not discussing the issue of funding; it is just a group of legislators sitting down to discuss. But as time goes on, if there is need for that, we will sit down and look at what the solution could be. I think the Globe is ready to create opportunity for us to be able to tap into best practices in the world, for us to know how those countries do things.

There is this report that some PDP governors and senators are planning to cross over to All Progressives Congress (APC).

I am not aware of any senator or governor in the PDP moving across or whatever to APC. Look, I will be surprised if any politician that knows his onion says because he read in the newspapers that opposition parties announced APC, then he will pack his bag and go to the party. At least, he must first be sure that where he is going is existing, because it sounds interesting. It sounds as a true alternative in the present democracy we are practising, but as we have to see it. We have to see that it has come to stay and see the ideologies, the principles and how is the party going to be run. I will be surprised if six months down the line, the party is still standing because, for sure, all the parties involved must hold their conventions and agree that they want to go into this merger, and they have to go to INEC to inform them. Those are huge huddles, big tests. I also want to tell those of you in the media not to get excited yet. When we get to that level and they achieve that, then I can say that they are becoming a possible alternative. But to me, for now, it is too early to make any comment. I will be surprised if any politician that knows his onion jumps over the board into the party at this stage, though their coming together is a wake-up call for all of us.

The Senate set a new record by passing the budget before the end of last year, what is delaying its signing into law by the President?

It is a very serious issue. I know that the executive has some issues on the budget, but that is normal. It is not anything new, and those kinds of things are normally resolved by dialogue, review or whatever, but time is running out for those kinds of discussions. We hope that very soon, the issues will be resolved quickly; otherwise the gains of passing the budget so early will be lost. I don’t know what those issues are; whether it is constituency project or personnel issue, there are different things being said. But what I can say is that now there is that urgency to resolve those issues. It is either the executive will accentuate and can come later as supplementary or virement. The other option is to send it back to the National Assembly to take decision. But really, the major issue is that time is fast running out and we both must do something fast.

As former chairman of Nigerian Governors’ Forum (NGF), what is your view on the call for the scrapping of local governments by the Forum?

My argument on this is that, yes we have seen some bad cases in the states where local governments are not allowed to operate, but we should not use only one paint brush for the entire system. Because certain states said those things have been abused does not mean that the process is not working. It is not about whether I was part of the NGF and now in the Senate, my own position is the same. By and large, in most of the states, I believe that the local government funds are not being tampered with, yet we have seen some bad cases in some states where local governments are not allowed to operate. There are also virtues in the kind of collaborations that we see between the local governments and some states. Some of the local governments, even today, cannot stand on their own. I know that 70 per cent of those local governments cannot even pay salaries and be able to carry out capital projects because of the huge sum of overhead costs that they are carrying since the period of increase in salaries. That also shows you the issue of dynamism. May be, at a time, some of them had more funds, but today majority of them, from my own analysis, don’t have those funds.