Deacon John Dara is a key figure in the politics of Kwara State. He was a fiery Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) governorship aspirant in 2003 when the battle between him and Bukola Saraki in the primaries which has become a watershed. He spoke with Wole Adedeji on the emerging order in the state. Excerpts:

President Goodluck Jonathan’s visit to Kwara State recently witnessed a large turnout. Does that indicate a sort of revolution in Kwara State vis-a-vis the political leadership of Dr. Bukola Saraki who is now in APC?

The truth is that over the years, Kwara people were not satisfied with the Saraki leadership in the state. But the late Baba Saraki was a stable politician who was a little more diplomatic. I think because Bukola was not able to study and appropriate the structures he rode on. It appears he did not understand what it took to sustain that structure. When you begin to tell lies many times, people will begin to believe it and even the liar will begin to believe his own lies. The lie was that Kwara people were docile and contented to follow one person. They did not care for democracy, they did not want good governance, good quality leadership; they just wanted to have a leader who will dole out patronage at his whim and caprices. Most Nigerians believed this about Kwara State. They even looked down on the rest of us in Kwara whereas the real problem was that the majority were just weak economically and politically to effect a change. They could have done so if they were well mobilised. That is what I tried to do in 2002. I came on the scene, created awareness and mobilised the people and there was real yearning for change.

If not for the intervention of external forces created and forced on the state by the then Vice-President, Atiku Abubakar, who is now going about pretending to be a democrat, he was the one who overturned the process. He scuttled the process of democratic selection and imposed a candidate on us in the Kwara PDP. The rest is history. Whereas the people of Kwara State knew how he came, the people outside were cynical whether he won or not. It still confirms the old myth. We kept on hoping that change will come. Maybe, it is taking this long for the wind of change to begin to blow strong enough. What is remarkable is that it is not based on a John Dara initiative, or some other change agents, individually or collectively do anything without it. I think what has happened is almost like the story of Rehoboam and Solomon in the Bible. You remember that when Solomon died, the people of Israel gathered and said, ‘look we were only enduring your father, Solomon. He overworked us. He over-tasked us to build the big places, temples. It was tough on all the people of Israel. You are now the king succeeding your father, we want you to reduce our burden.” And Rehoboam said, “I am bigger than my people. I am going to make your burden even heavier.” The people suddenly snapped and rebelled. That is how the famous saying, “to your tent o Israel” was made. I think Kwara has reached a breaking point with the overbearing, arrogant attitude of Bukola. This is what has helped to create this situation. We would say it is also God’s time. Alas the old saying, God’s time is the best.

Gbemisola is Bukola’s sister. Ordinarily, they will be on the same page but you see the same attitude has so alienated her that she will rather be anywhere else than where he is. The same feeling that his sister has is the feeling that most of the political actors in Kwara State have. So, APC has been a blessing to us in taking Bukola away from PDP. They have helped those of us who are the original members of PDP. In fact, most of the people who are scattering into all other parties were doing so out of frustration.

The day Mr. President came here to receive our brothers and sisters who defected to our party and the calibre of those who decamped to us was a day of great reunion, a great realignment of forces. That is why it is a revolutionary development for the people of Kwara State. We are all celebrating because we know that change has finally come.

Let me place it on record that I have a personal admiration for the late Dr. Olusola Saraki. I respect his political acumen. While I did not agree with him, I respect his capacity to follow through with what he believed in. I think Bukola on his own part is just presumptuous. He did not quite understand what even his father did to rule Kwara for so long. This time round, the game is up. This is not a game against the Saraki family, because Saraki family is in fact with us in PDP. It s a movement against Bukola Saraki. He is now fully isolated in Kwara politics. He is on his own.

But Bukola is not in government; Alhaji Abdulfatah Ahmed is now governor of the state; has he done well in terms of human capital development and provision of infrastructure?

You are a journalist that we know has been in the state for quite some time. You are in position to know that a lot of lies had been told in the past. When the local revenue for each local government is not getting to them, when you take almost two-thirds of their money away and leave only a fraction left for them and a few of these council people who dared to challenge it were suspended, persecuted, ostracised and everybody was intimidated into silence. When many people were writing books about scams that are going on in the name of agriculture, even the press became an accomplice in the deceit because we know how the system works. Correspondents are here in the state. They have their families, lives to preserve and if it gets to a point where there are threats to their livelihood, and we know of cases when news correspondents in this state were made to lose their jobs by people in government. A lot of people became scared to tell the truth. But the truth is that Kwara State which was created in 1967 has been stagnant. The last 13 years or so have been worse than any in terms of revenue available to the state and the low quality of deliveries. I believe that what we have been running is a huge scam and we hope that the freedom that the people of Kwara are celebrating today is not just from an individual dictator but it is also from bad governance, from governance by deceit, propaganda, monthly hosting of editors and sharing money for people to continue to sustain lies. I believe that the possibilities in Kwara are incredible. I see that the infrastructure in the state is very poorly developed. We have some of the worst roads in the country. Worse than that, I pity people from Kaiama and Baruten. It is like they have been forgotten completely. The bridge linking Kaiama is in a state of total disrepair. It is worse than what it was in 1967 when I first travelled on it as a young secondary school boy. That is still how it is till today, in fact with age, it has deteriorated. Many times, the transporters are cut off. We have to follow a long way in order to cut off that place and yet, we have government. It is in my view that it is sheer wickedness and every government during campaigns did promise to do something about the road. It is not just the road, it is the whole attitude towards the people of Baruteen and Kaiama as if they do not matter, as if they are not part of Kwara State.

You should look at the map of the state; they are like some after-thoughts in the scheme of things. I think a good government will know that land is money and we cannot live almost half of the land of the state completely abandoned and unutilised. I believe that if we have serious governance, that the area has its uses and the possibilities are enormous. That is not to talk about a more developed area like Patigi, the river course (River Niger) between Jebba and Patigi could conveniently become one of the best for river-basin tourism in the country.

Talking about development, would it be right to say it is a case of lack of understanding of how government should be run or is it outright mismanagement of resources?

In most states of the federation, the problem has been that some people went into government with the mindset that an opportunity has come for them for self-enrichment and not necessarily to serve the people. Never mind what people say when they are campaigning. A few have the discipline or the integrity to maintain their original vision when they get access to power. I do hope that we would get that kind of orientation now and things would change as we in the PDP put structures in place to check those who are in government. Is it therefore that those in government don’t know what to do when they get there? It is because they don’t have the will to do what is right. They never intended to do what is right. But, the way to change that is to make it costly and risky for anybody to misappropriate any government or public money. I believe that corruption thrives where the prospect of being caught or heavily sanctioned is limited.

As things are today, people know that they are likely to get away with stealing of public funds in one form or the other. By the time you inflate contracts and you lose your job, go to jail or ruin your name and your career, then people will know that it is a dangerous thing.

I have always believed that when you really serve and build infrastructure, human resources, the economy, it is likely that you would have created enough wealth for everybody that even you or your children would benefit from. But what we have is people spending a substantial faction of public funds for their private interests. As I said, it won’t change by pleading to the people or appealing to them. It will change when the system is put in place that there would be the whistle blowers, sanctions for everyone and the prospect of anyone tampering with public funds being caught at anytime would be very high.

How do you see Senator Gbemisola Saraki in PDP and Bukola Saraki in APC? Can PDP expect a sustained rift between brother and sister?

On the issue of Gbemi; we happen to be close friends long before now. It is long before the developments that made the ACPN, ACN or even the PDP that has brought about all these realignments of late. I felt that Gbemi was a more truthful and forthright person than Bukola. I could relate far better than. Even now, I have had opportunity to ask her the kind of questions you are asking me playfully. I come with the conclusion that she is more interested in team work, collective leadership and democracy. She is not struggling to build an empire which is good for her and the family. She is just like any other politician offering her services to the state as a person.

People talk of handing over PDP structures just to anybody. This question does not actually arise. That was how the original PDP was like before the Sarakis came on board; team work, collective leadership and everything was democratic. No individual can say I owe the structures of PDP. So, Gbemi Saraki will be part of the team. Many of her supporters will be elected as officers in the wards, local governments and the state as other interest groups will also have their people elected. There will be primaries for whatever office she is aspiring for in future. She would either win or lose.

I think the person who will probably be the biggest scourge for Bukola Saraki will be Gbemi, but that is neither here nor there. We are not interested in their personal interests or private matters. We are more concerned about democracy and good governance in Kwara State. I am happy that Gbemi has opted to be part of the democratic group, the pro-good governance group, which is now in PDP.

The issue of who flies the flag for the governorship election has always been the problem in your party; how would you go about it this time round?

You gentlemen of the press should not begin to give credence to bear parlour talk. It is true that if party primaries are not well managed, they can tear the party into shreds. But what our National Chairman, Alhaji Adamu Muazu has been saying is that he is not interested in imposing candidate(s) anywhere. What President Jonathan has been saying is that he is not interested in imposing candidates anywhere.

When it was a tradition of the PDP, you have free and fair primaries. Whether the emerging candidate is from Ilorin, Baruteen, Oyun or wherever, it becomes irrelevant. This is because it would have been fairly contested for and won. It is incumbent upon the winner to reach out to those who have lost. It is the tradition in democracy that those who have lost will count their losses by bargaining for something.

When Mrs. Clinton lost to Obama, she did just that; they held meetings and she became the secretary of state and even with the prospect of becoming the successor to Obama. We can always work it out once the primary is free and fair. But when you have a situation where some external forces are trying to impose a candidate; that is bound to cause some problems. I believe that the new direction at the national level, even in Kwara State would be to ensure that we have free and fair contest and we can then enjoy our democracy and just move on.

How do you go about the registration of members into PDP bearing in mind that APC in Kwara recently did the registration of members and is boasting of 380,000 registered; can you make this also in PDP?

APC in Kwara State did not register 100,000 members. That is something that you may want me to prove. I didn’t see their books. But I know what happened in my ward. I know what happened all over the place because I have coordinators in every local government and I was sufficiently interested to ask what happened and they said, APC? Nobody paid attention to them. If somebody sat down in one corner and was compiling a list of names and says he has 300,000, I wish him good luck. The Yoruba say when a man has planted 100 yam seedlings and claims and boasts that he has planted 200, he will know his folly when it is harvest time; when he has harvested the 100 genuine seedlings, he would have to go and look for how he would get the remaining 100 false seedlings to harvest. If APC is living in self delusion, in next election, they would know that they have lost Kwara State.

Can the turnout during Mr. President’s visit on March 3 be translated to election fortune in 2015?

Rallies are a good way of showing the popularity of an idea or a group but they are not the ultimate test. For us as party members, we are more interested in the structures we are putting in place. It is even more exciting that on a ward by ward basis, even attendance of wards’ meetings now that we have not formalised, I mean putting formal executives in place. The caretaker committee will soon commence registration. But meetings are going on, even without the registration yet. Meetings are going on in every ward. In my local government, Oyun for instance, we rotate meetings from ward to ward. Each ward is supposed to host one meeting or the other and then host the local government in addition to their own ward meetings weekly. In other words, in each ward, the likelihood of at least two meetings a week is very high because members would go for their meetings and then, a rotational local government meeting will follow. Before you know it, it will become a carnival. They do meetings; and everyone is excited and that is being replicated in every local government in the state.

So, for us, we would see a PDP that would almost have an intimidating strength. When that comes, the result would be much more than just rallies. For example, how many buses did we allocate to each ward for the rally? We allocated buses to the wards but the truth is that too many people were sadly frustrated because they could not get spaces in the buses allocated to their area. This response is not truly a true reflection of our strength. When the time comes and our candidates emerge and the President is coming to flag off the mother of all rallies, you will see the true position of our strength