Date: 2017-02-07

In this interview with AHMED 'LATEEF, Minister of Communications, Barrister Abdul-Raheem Adebayo Shittu, shortly after he attended the official opening of the 31st National Quranic Recitation Competition holding in Ilorin last Friday, spoke on issues of governance, economy and communication industry.

Can we know your background prior to your ministerial appointment?

Abdul-Raheem Adebayo Shittu is an unassuming servant of God, born in Saki, Oke-Ogun Area of Oyo State, schooled at primary and middle school levels in Chinderi Village in the Volta Region of Ghana, attended Baptist High School, Saki where I, in 1973, happened to have been the only candidate in the whole what is now 10 Local Governments to have gotten Grade One in School Certificate. I proceeded to Obafemi Awolowo University or University of Ife as it was then called. And I batched Bachelor of Laws. I have been in politics since my days in the then University of Ife. In my penultimate year in the University, I came in company and became a member of the then Committee of Friends of Chief Obafemi Awolowo, which later became the Unity Party of Nigeria.

I contested election into the House of Assembly of Oyo State while in the Nigerian Law School as a student. I won election and became the youngest member of the Oyo State House of Assembly then between 1979 and 1983. Twice, I have been a Commissioner. Once as Commissioner for Home Affairs, Information and Culture. Secondly, I became Attorney General of Oyo State and by the grace of God, I had contested for the governorship of Oyo State twice. Today, I happened to be the Minister of Communications, Federal Republic of Nigeria.

As a member of the Federal Executive Council, Nigerians are looking at the APC led government as a bit slow in hitting the ground running. How will you describe this government in terms of meeting the yearnings of the people?

I'm very proud to be associated with the leadership and the government of President Muhammadu Buhari. I think this government is the best that has even happened in the last 60 years or so.

Is it because you are made a Minister?

Well, I have always been in politics, there is no big deal in becoming a Minister. A Minister is just a Minister. There are bigger positions and you wouldn't say that at my level that I don't qualify by all standards to be a Minister. I said that because Nigerians had experienced mismanagement of our country for well over 60 years. You remember at the Military days when there was no democracy, when corruption was also at its highest but could not be exposed because of the fear of the Military hammer, that tenure did produce somebody like Muritala Mohammed. Unfortunately, he could not do the best that we expected because his regime was cut short and his life was also cut short.

Secondly, we had Buhari who became a Military Head of State and he was determined to fight corruption because he discovered at that time as even now that corruption has been the canker worm, which has strutified the progress, growth and development of Nigeria. Again because of that, his regime was cut short by then (General) Ibrahim Babangida.

Today, we have in the immediate-past 16 years of administration of the PDP. You know that the last occupant of the position of President was Dr (Goodluck) Jonathan, who unfortunately, had a presidency on a platter of gold but because he was very weak, he was not firm, he didn't have a grip and perhaps he was not prepared for the presidency, he could not fight the extensive level of corruption of that administration, and it was for that reason that his government was thrown out by the Nigerian people.

Now, if you have a dilapidated house, which has been systematically destroyed over a 16 year period, there is no magic which will make you be able to rebuild that structure which has been destroyed. It is often said that it is easier to destroy than to build. For any sensible person, if you inherit a disoriented society like ours like anybody who inherits a dilapidated infrastructure, it takes time to rebuild. In rebuilding, you have to start even from the foundation, to see whether it was foundation which was faulty, and which brought about the destruction of the system.

In Nigeria, by the time Buhari came on board, of course I said that the foundation for this government is its avowed fight against corruption. If the previous governments had not been corrupt, had not been inept and had not destroyed systematically the entire fabric of the Nigerian State, Buhari would not have been voted. Haven come in like somebody who has to rebuild the dilapidated structure, you have to start from the foundation.

So, over the last one and half years, we have been in the process of identifying the fault lines in the Nigerian system and taken steps to rebuild. I want to appreciate the fact also that at the height of the Jonathan's administration, oil, which was the mainstay of the Nigerian economy, in terms of incomes and revenues, was selling at $140 per barrel and Nigeria was producing 2.2million barrels a day, multiply 2.2million barrels to $140 and you get what Nigeria was earning as daily income.

Unfortunately, by the time Buhari came on board, oil price had plummeted from $140 to about $35, meaning that Nigeria had lost more than 70 percent of its income. Again, in terms of quantity of oil being produced, from 2.2million barrels, it got to about 900,000 barrels because of the activities of criminals who called themselves avengers or militants of the South-South. When oil was selling for $140 per barrel and we were producing 2.2million barrels a day, you will expect that these monies would have been used for infrastructures in education, health care services, roads, railways and what have you. Of course, nothing of such was done.

Again, you will expect that part of those incomes, humongous as it was, would have been used as savings for the rainy day. Again, the PDP administration never thought it fit to save for the rainy day. All of such monies were simply shared by officials of the PDP government. Moreover, you will recall that at the height of the infamous Boko Haram insurgency, the Borno State Governor, Kashim (Shettima) cried out that the Boko Haram elements had more sophisticated guns than the Nigerian Armed Forces. He was called all sorts of names. At the end of the day, the then President Jonathan took a prayer to the National Assembly to approve $1billion to the government for purchase of arms so that the Nigerian Armed Forces would be better equipped to confront Boko Haram elements or criminals. The money was approved by the Senate and you know what happened, he simply put all of that money on the table, shared between military officials and the then PDP leaders and that accounted for hundreds of thousands of innocent people being killed, simply because of the negligence and greed of that government.

So, you need to understand all of this scenario before you can apportion blame, and you know that one of the greatest achievements of the Buhari's administration is the fact that for once, he decisively confronted Boko Haram and today, none of the 14 Local Government Areas, which had been colonized by Boko Haram is still in their stronghold. These are things you must look at.

Again, there has been a sustained fight against corruption and so far, you will agree with me that many of those who engaged in that criminality of stealing public money are facing the music. Many of them have had to refund monies, which they have stolen including (Military) Generals. So, these are things you have to look at, and I would also assure you that we are on the steady rise. We have made a lot of improvement in agriculture, telecoms industry, mining and health sectors and all of that.

So, I want to say that for once, Nigerians should thank their stars that in the last 50 years, we now have a President who you can entrust with the commonwealth of this country, who will not steal your money, who will not mismanage your money, who will not tolerate any of officials engaging in criminality of stealing and all of that. And I think that should be the starting point for us to continue to thank God that we have a Buhari's Presidency. I want to believe that with prayers of all Nigerians, the future will certainly by the grace of God, be brighter than the past.

Do you think Nigerians should still be hopeful in reviving our economy considering the fact that food stuff and others have skyrocketed?

If you say prices of food stuffs had skyrocketed, whose fault is that? You see, we must understand that the foreign exchange situation of this country has plummeted because Nigerians are not producing for export. We have relied solely and criminally, if I may be allowed to say that, over the years on petroleum, because petroleum money was coming in free of charge, we did not think that we should re-invest money from petroleum in other sectors so that we can have foreign trade balance. If you live a life of sole reliance on one commodity, if the bad trade tides fall on that commodity, what happens?

The thing is we in this government have decided to diversify the Nigerian economy by ensuring that agricultural productivity is given a serious boost, by ensuring that mineral resources have serious boost, by ensuring that local contents in our production processes are encouraged, in fact in the communication sector. We are encouraging local production of goods and services, so that monies, which otherwise would have been expended to sustain other foreign economies, are conserved in Nigeria.

I want to tell you, for instance that in my Ministry, because we discovered that there is a local industry, which will produce sim cards... (Cuts)

President Muhammadu Buhari contested the presidency of this nation almost three or four times before he got the mandate of Nigerians. You also contested for the governorship of Oyo State twice. Are you still interested in contesting again?

First of all, I have been a politician from 1979 even as a qualified lawyer at that time. And consistently, I have been interested in serving the public. I have learnt at the feet of Late Chief Obafemi Awolowo in terms of creating and establishing a welfare state for our people. Unfortunately over the years, you have had several Governors and Presidents who never thought that people deserved the best from their governments.

I will continue, by the grace of God, to make myself available for public positions either for governorship or whatever. And I want to believe that I consider it a divine duty, because if you abandon governance to mediocres, godless people and people who don't have brilliant ideas as you have, you will continue to suffer and people will continue to suffer. So, for me, it is a work in progress and by the grace of God, in 2019, I will never shy away from it.

As a qualified lawyer, what is your view on the cleansing in the Judiciary?

My position is the law is very clear, nobody is above the law. Anybody who is suspected of having been involved in criminality can and would come under the hammer of the judicial process. Issue like this is very clear. Because issue says there is immunity for two categories of people. Governors and their deputies, president and his vice. Those are the only ones who have the immunity. If you feel you are too big to be under the searchlight of the judicial process, please don't get involved in criminality, don't get involved in corruption, don't get involved in bribery or compromising your position for selfish end.

For me, all the hullabaloo of prosecuting the judiciary is neither here nor there, because it is not the judiciary as such, but individuals within the system. We will all agree that there are black legs in every system. For every 12 disciples, you have a judas. And if we don't want to tolerate a cancerous ailment, which has eaten deep into the Nigeria system, I think if people are suspected of criminality, what we should be fighting for is that they be given fair opportunity to defend themselves and not that they should not be investigated.

If a common criminal steals N1000, and he is jailed for five years and then you have a supposedly big man who did not limit his own stealing to N1000, he denies Nigerians of their commonwealth to the tune of millions or billions of naira, and you think it is fair and just to allow such a criminal in whatever garb he wears to go, I think that will not be justice.

Since your assumption of office, what is your impression about the communication industry?

I thank God that the communication industry on getting to office, it has pleased God to use me to appreciate the positively potential nature of the communication industry. I am glad to say that as of today, the communication industry is second only to petroleum in terms of the revenues that accrue to government. In the past, we never had this opportunity. Remember the days of NITEL, Nigerians had only less than half a million telephone lines. Then, it was a population of about 150million.

Today, 16 years after, we have had the GSM revolution, the telecommunication industry is contributing about 12 percent to our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). And today, our communication sector provides jobs for more people even than oil sector. We have put everything in motion to ensure that enabling environment is provided for operators in that sector.

I have brought to this office, I can say this with all humility, a new vista into running the communication sector. The business of government in the communication sector is not to compete with the private sector in managing GSM companies. Our own business is to provide an enabling environment for private operators to be able to do business and provide service, which would enable lives to improve, which would enable businesses to run profitably and which will enable government to have more revenues and we are doing that, and I believe that the sky is the limit.

Recently, you visited Rwanda and Kenya on a mission. Can we know the gains derived from the visit?

You will recall that Kenya is a country of about 47million and Rwanda is a country about 11million. These countries compare to Nigeria are very small. To our chagrin, these two countries have made tremendous progress in the development and growth of ICT, in the usage of ICT to develop their economies and improve lives and to really improve even governance through their e-government system. As Nigerians, we had to bury our shame to go to these countries, to learn how they had done it to attain the level that they had attained.

For instance in Kenya, we have gone to learn about how to bring about financial inclusiveness to the ordinary man. I give you an example of what happens in Nigeria. Nigeria has 774 Local Government (Areas), more than 50 percent of which do not have banks. That means those people living in those local governments without banks are financially excluded from the fiscal policies of this country. So, we learned that in Kenya they have a system called "Impesser" where we don't have to go to the banks, where your (mobile) telephone is already your bank. It is very interesting, and we are trying to replicate that. You don't have to have a bank. Whereas you have a GSM phone, you do everything on your phone, that is e-banking. It is a fantastic thing. We are still putting our experiences together, and very soon, it will be unleashed on Nigeria.

In Rwanda, they have e-government services. More than 50 government services, you don't have to go to any government offices. For instance, if you want to do an International Passport, you do it from any computer, you get your passport and all your data captured on your phone and sent to an office. You pay online and your passport is posted to you. So, we have gone to learn about that and by the grace of God we are going to do it here.

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) is a property of every muslim, you take it wherever you find it. In consonance with that, we went to these countries to learn about a number of things. Rwanda, in particular, is very exciting. Even though it is a small country, they have four thousand public buses, all of which are connected to Wi-Fi, an internet connectivity. Even in big offices here, you don't have that. They have extended Wi-Fi connectivity even to public buses so that every common man, who does not have a car but who rides in public buses can get hooked up to the internet. So, by the grace of God, all of these gains will be translated into action in our country.

What measures has government of Nigeria put in place to check loopholes in the communication industry including Radio Biafra and MTN fines saga?

The Ministry (of Communications) is concerned with communications. It is not concerned with broadcasting or media. So, anything on DSTV, Radio Biafra or whatever, is not within my constitutional purview. It relates to the Ministry of Information. Concerning the issue of our laws you mentioned and the fact that MTN saga arose, we have laws, which for now, are appropriate and do not necessarily require amendment. Of course if there was no law, the MTN saga would not have arisen. It is because we have a law, which says that every sim card in operation must be registered so that the data of all those using the sim cards will be on the record, so that if anybody uses a phone line or a sim card to perpetrate evil, you can discover his personality and identity and catch up with him.

And the law says for every non-registration of a sim card, the punishment is N200,000 fines. Unfortunately for MTN, it was in default of 5.2million lines, which were in use and which had not been registered. Apparently, the default had been in place before we came in, when we came in, we discovered it and applied the law, particularly in relation to that fact, and that was why the so called MTN saga arose.

Of course in the process, when it happened and they (MTN) were apprehended, one, they owned up to it haven defaulted in registering all 5.2million lines, secondly, they asked for forgiveness, thirdly, they committed themselves never to allow such an infraction to occur again and fourthly they asked for remission and in the process, that is a long story anyway. The President graciously gave them a remission of about two third of the fines.

In any case, so far, they have paid N80billion out of the N330billion they are supposed to pay. That is a huge windfall to the government, you will agree with me, particularly now that funds are scarce in government purse.

What are you doing on the unsolicited calls and messages from network providers?

I am of one of the victims of unsolicited messages. Everybody is a victim whether you are a Minister or whatever. On the telecom poor services, which the Ministry of Communications and Nigerian Communication Commission are working very hard to curtail or seek redress from the communications companies, I do not want to lose sight on the fact that to whom much is given, much more is expected. That is one. Secondly, you will recall that before the GSM companies came to Nigeria, we had less than 500,000 lines, I have mentioned that before. We then out of desperation and out of the need to have a better life for Nigerians, invited the entire world to come and invest in the country.

Consequently, many of these companies brought in their money, skilled personnel, technology and established GSM companies in Nigeria. It is only in Nigeria that I have seen that you invite a company to come and establish where such services rely solely or majorly on electricity and government is unable to provide this component, leaving the GSM companies to rely on their own to provide electricity, they provide generators, which must work 24hours daily, provide diesel, which again is very expensive and that creates a depression in the finances of even these companies. I believe that these are parts of the causes of the poor services.

Of course when you travel far and wide, there is no country where services are perfect, every country has its own share of poor services. But I want you to know that NCC, which is under my supervision, has introduced a toll free line for members of the public to make complaints about deficiencies in their services, so that any company, which engages in such a deficiency will be sanctioned. This is ongoing and I want to believe that with effort of government in this direction, we will have improvement in due course. But I want to say again that Nigeria, which has invited them, must also do its bit and you know that electricity is so fundamental to the operations of companies. I'm aware that many of them have to rely on bank loans. Nigerians may not want to listen but the truth must be said. We in government have a duty not only to Nigerian citizens but also to those companies, which are providing these services.

Today in Nigeria, if you want to send a text message, you pay N4 or at most N5. If you go to Benin (republic) and you sent text message there, you pay N50. That is ten times of what you pay in Nigeria. It means that the Nigerian environment in which these companies are operating is not profitable. We must provide an enabling environment, which will make these companies to be sustainable. We must ensure that we provide electricity optimally. We must also ensure that criminality, which occurs particularly in relation to vandalization of telecom equipment is taken care of, and then the very exorbitant bank rates for accessing finance to run some of these businesses. These are things that I think as a conscientious Nigerian, I must own up to it as somebody in government.

Is the rumour making the rounds that the Federal Government planned to sell off NITEL and MTEL true?

I'm surprised if anybody is asking that question and if anybody is still thinking of what is in the past tense. Before this government came in, NITEL had been sold, and those who bought NITEL changed its name to MTEL. They are operating as a company now, and they are the fifth operator in the GSM market.

As a lawyer, am aware and I know as a fact that when you say something, ownership of that thing lapses to the buyer of that thing. Once you take your money, you have been paid. You no more have the right to what you have sold. Nigeria had sold NITEL, a new buyer has taken possession, it is operating under a new name, it has also applied and given license to operate. And I think that we cannot continue to cry over split milk.

What is the future of communication sector in Nigeria considering its big market potential?

I think the future is very bright. We want to believe that all companies even while operating under the very stringent condition in the country, are still making progress. Of course, I also know that telecom business is one business that requires huge capital to operate. You are talking in billions. To even buy a license from NCC, you are talking of nothing less than $250million, which barely allows you to operate. That does not include the equipment you have to purchase, it does not include your working capital, and it does not include building masts. If you see any mast around, you can imagine how many masts are in Ilorin town. Each mast cost about N40million. So, it is a huge capital that is required.

But we are encouraging. And I want to say at this forum that I have been thinking of initiating the establishment of a communication's bank, which will be a development bank to assist Communication and ICT companies to have easy access to working capitals. At the rate that loans are taking from banks now, it is simply very difficult for them to really operate. They have to have limitless and very deep pocket to be able to operate.

So, I think the Nigerian government must be ready and prepared to assist. If government continues to provide money for agricultural development, mineral development and all of that and more importantly communication. Because communication is one sector that affects everybody. Today, with due respect, even Fulani pastoralists use telephone. That means everybody is involved. It is one thing that government can improve upon, and it can be sure that it is creating a welfare society.

Let's look at digitization in the broadcast industry. Has your Ministry any role to play in this?

The only role that we play, like I said the other time, digitization is about broadcasting, and broadcasting is about Ministry of Information. But we provide the spectra, which are used because you cannot operate without having spectrum. I am Chairman of the National Frequency Management Council. We provide spectrum to the Nigerian Broadcasting Commission and the National Communication Commission. These are two regulators, both of who sell frequency to either communication companies or broadcasting companies. So, to that extent, I cannot go beyond what is the mandate of the Ministry of Communications in broadcasting services in this country.

Some people believe that DSTV is ripping us off in this country contrary to what obtains in countries like South Africa. What is your take on that?

I don't have much take because again it is about broadcasting, which is not within my purview. But as intelligent Nigerian and conscious of issues around the world, many of these companies have to subscribe to foreign organizations. So, if the value of Nigeria currency has gone down, a dollar today is almost N500, it follows that if the value of our Naira had gone down, for those companies to operate profitably in the course of their services, cannot be the same at all. These are realities. It is said that we cannot have omelet without breaking egg. We cannot have good services if the Naira's value continues to go down and if Nigeria has not attained the level where these businesses can be done profitably at the lowest minimum rate.

I have given example of ordinary SMS. In Nigeria, SMS is about the lowest in this sub-region. With N4, you can send a text message. In the next country, you pay 10 times of you pay in Nigeria. These are problems that we must appreciate and we must be fair. I always like to be fair even to my enemies. The problem we have in Nigeria is dislocation of so many things, and the earlier we appreciate these negative issues, the better we are able to understand the environment.

Of course, if I was not the Minister of Communications, I would not be able to understand it as much as I do now, and I would be crying like every other Nigerian is crying. But by virtue of my position, I have a duty to Nigerians to let them know and understand the right perspectives.

What are we doing to check communication fraud?

We call it cyber security. This is like, for instance, if you sell cars, and somebody asks you, what are we doing about theft of cars, is that the business of you selling cars to check criminality of what you sell. What am driving at is this, Nigeria currently has Cyber Security Council headed by the National Security Adviser. This implies that cyber criminality is like other forms of criminality.

If you have a house or a store somewhere, the sensible thing for you to do, is to employ Guards, who take care of protecting or ensuring that alarms are blown if somebody comes in or intrudes into your property. Technology is also assisting in this by virtue of having CCTV cameras. But in cyber criminality, you don't have to rely on human beings, you don't have to rely on CCTV cameras, you rely on the unseen and non-physical Guards if you like. Technology has developed to the extent that you can deploy it to checkmate criminality.

And I want to believe that government through the Cyber Security Council headed by the National Security Adviser is taking appropriate action. As a matter of fact, there is a cyber security act, which spells out what the council must be doing to checkmate cyber fraud and all of that.

As a member of the Federal Executive Council, don't you think government should initiate policies to regulate rise in foreign exchange like dollars in the parallel market?

What you don't have, you cannot give. Foreign exchange is not determined by us because we don't have much that we are selling at the International market. Today, the only thing that we are selling is petroleum. Unfortunately for us, when we produce petroleum, the International community decides how much they buy it from you, then refine the petroleum, bring it back and determine how much they sell to you.

If Nigeria had been able to build refineries, the issue of carrying our raw product overseas for refining would not occur. Consequently, you will be saving a lot of money in transporting this raw oil to overseas where you have refineries. Beside, if we were able to be refining locally, we would be selling refine product to the International community at the price that we determine, not at the price that the man selling determines.

So, Nigerian economy has been disjointed over the years, perhaps because there had not been enough financial intelligence being put into our system. When (President) Buhari who used to be Minister of Petroleum Resources, during his time, built three refineries. Today, Nigeria has not added anything to the number of refineries. Instead of the succeeding government to even maintain them, by the time Buhari came in, all these refineries were producing at below 50 percent capacity.

I'm happy to recall that the President has put action into motion to ensure that these refineries are being rebuilt and resuscitated to be able to produce optimally. Of course, I'm also aware that a number of licenses for the establishment of new refineries have also been given out. Even though, none except Dangote is seriously building a new refinery in Lekki, Lagos State. I think if we get to a situation where all our refineries are working optimally, we would have less export of raw petroleum, we will be able to sell and gain what we are losing now in transportation cost.

You are neck deep in politics. Can we know what you are giving back to your people at home for the support giving you even up till this moment?

In Nigeria, unfortunately, we don't have ideological divide in our party politics. It has been 'chop chop' politics over the years. And that is why you find people moving from one place to the other. My prayer is that what Nigeria needs most is the right leadership. Because many of these countries we visited, they don't have petroleum, they don't have mineral and many of them do not even have land for agriculture. And yet they have surpassed Nigeria in all indices of development.

So, leadership brings all the difference. And If you ask me what I have given back to this country, it is sincere, honest and humble leadership in governance. I'm perhaps one of the most accessible Ministers you can have in this country. Anybody can walk into my office and see me. So, this is one. But more importantly, it is giving hope that people must be enlightened to know that their future relies on them.

If because of small money, you vote for a government or a people who do not have the best interest or don't even have the best ideas about transforming the society, you will be mortgaging your future to the reality of poverty of other development and all of that. So, what I hope, I have not been Governor, I have been Minister, I have been Commissioner. So, when I have executive powers, I already have all the ideas I have learnt from the late Chief Obafemi Awolowo about transforming society into a life of more abundance.

You talk of free education, free medical services, agricultural development, rural development, all of these are priorities that every government must focus on. We have a lot of people in government now who are in executive positions but are not adding values to the lives of their citizens. I believe that I have what it takes to bring about a government that people will be proud of, a government that people will have access to. So I want to believe that if society is lucky to have people of ideas, people of commitment and faith and being God fearing, of course we will have improvement.

You and Governor Abdulfatah Ahmed of Kwara State embraced each other at a function you came for in Ilorin. Are we expecting anything from Ministry of Communications in Kwara State?

Governor Abdulfatah Ahmed is my friend, he is my brother and I think our chemistry mixes very well. My mandate is to bring about transformation of ICT throughout Nigeria inclusive of Kwara and Oyo where I come up. We have been talking and I believe that our activities will leverage positively on governance in Kwara State.

You came to Kwara State on a dual role of representing Mr President and being a Muslim for the 31st National Qur'anic Competition. How will you describe the programme organized by the Local Organizing Committee?

I think the arrangement was very excellent from what we saw, and I want to say that the icing on the cake are two speeches that I listened to. The speech of the Executive Governor (of Kwara State), who spoke like somebody who has faith in God, who has confidence in himself and who has hope for the masses of Kwara State.

More importantly, from the Islamic perspective, I also felt excited about the wonderful and the quintessential lecture, which was delivered by the National Missioner of Ansaru-Deen, Alhaji Abdulrahman Ahmad. He was simply wonderful, and I commit myself to assist him in transmitting the messages in the lecture to all Nigerians. I think Nigerians, particularly Muslims need to learn more about Islam, need to understand Islam better so that they can be better worshippers and consequently they can be better citizens of Nigeria.

There is no doubt that in this country, we are a country of religiousity without godliness. You see everybody covering him or herself with the garb of religion, but are most of these people godly? Do they not commit all the crimes that non-muslims and non-God fearing people would commit? So, I think that government should make concrete effort to give Religious Studies the pride of place, because if we abandon godliness, we would certainly be in a worst society. Godless people, when they succeed going into government, will simply steal their state blind. Godless people even if they are not in positions of authority, would create an instability in the society. They would become thieves, they would become militants, they would create fear and would create violence in the society.

It is only godliness imbued in human beings that would make them to be safe. I really appreciate the lectures that I listened to, and I want to believe that these lectures should be internalized by all Muslims and by all Nigerians so that we can together have a safer society in Nigeria.

Let's look at the issue of Boko Haram. Some people of other faiths describe them as Islamic terrorists... (Cuts in)

Certainly, they are not Islamic terrorists. They are criminals. And there are criminals among Muslims and among Christians. If you see the list of the suspects arrested by the Police (in connection with) Southern Kaduna Mayhem, you discovered that there are more Christians than Muslims. What is common among them is that they are all criminals, whether they claimed to be Muslims or Christians, and they unleashed violence on innocent and law abiding citizens.

For people to start dressing criminality in the garb of Islam, I think, it is most unfair, it is symbolic of the type of intolerance that people have about Islam. A lot of people simply do not understand why you will not be as larcenous as they are, why you will not be as godless as they are and why you will not be as traducers as they are.

How then can we stop religious intolerance in our country?

We can stop it by getting the right leadership, creating jobs for a lot of people, giving religious instruction the pride of place. If I have my way, good Muslim preachers and Christian preachers should be employed by government to teach morality either Islamic morality or Christian morality in schools. You may ask me why do we have even the clergy from both sides being also criminals. It is because they have wrong understanding of the religions they profess.

If we have the right curriculum for Religious Studies, both Islamic and Christian. For instance when people are being swearing-in for positions and they hold Qur'an or Bible, it is just an official symbolism. Some of the Christians that had not gone to Church for the past 10 years. When he gets to office, you could ask him what is he. He says he is a Christian and you give him the Bible. He doesn't know what it contains therein. And you find Muslims who know next to nothing about Islam. Merely because they bear Muslim names, you will say they are Muslims. They are not Muslims, they are mere claimants to the Islamic religion.

So, we must make strenuous effort. Yoruba adage says (it is wise to cut Iroko tree stem earlier before it becomes big and untamed). If you leave children from infancy to just grow without moral guidance, of course when they become adults, you will not be able to contain the criminalities and perversion in them. It is high time government got its art right, and give Religious Studies and Moral Studies the pride of place in development of our youth.

Lastly, what is your advise to Nigerians including lawyers, judiciary and members of political class?

For lawyers, I want to say that what they need most is not only the knowledge of law but also the fear of God. People should appreciate that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom even if you are best of lawyer, and you encourage criminality only because you will make more money from it, then you are not a good lawyer and you are a good citizen of Nigeria. People should fear God and use their positions, possessions and their knowledge to advance the development of a sane society.

For politicians, of course they are prone to misadventures, abuse of office and all of that. I always want to remind people. When I do something and people try to praise me, I say you don't have to praise me. By virtue of my position, I am said to be a public servant. A public servant means a servant of the public. I have been appointed as a Minister to serve the public. When I do well in servicing the public, am just doing my duty for which am being paid and for which I sought that position.

So, I want to believe also that therefore politicians too should fear God and remember that death will come when it will come. You don't have to be sick to die, you don't have to have an accident to die, you don't have to be very old to die. Death will come when it will come. And if death catches you at the point that you have engaged in criminality, in stealing, in perversion of society and in introducing what hurts the society, then know that you will be accountable to God and to the people.

For Nigerians generally, I also think the same message should go to them. Firstly, Nigerians should thank God that because of their efforts and prayers, God give Nigeria a President, who by all moral standards, has been the best that Nigeria has ever had. Nobody would compete with him in terms of morality. This is the President, who oncoming to office, slashed his own salary by half.

Cuts in.. Has members of the Federal Executive Council followed suit?

We have not followed suit because we are not compelled to do so. What I earn is not even enough to sustain me not to talk of the hordes of people, who look up to me for sustenance, assistance and all of that. But what I believe I should do and public should do, consequent upon the fact that this is a model of President, we all deserved to be praying for his good health, longevity and solomonic wisdom for him in ruling over Nigeria. We should also pray for other people in government so that God will direct them appropriately, so that God will put in them the spirit of patriotism and fear of God so that they will do things right for the betterment of our society.