Date: 2017-01-21

Mr. Yusuf Ali, SAN is a former Chairman, Nigerian Bar Association Anti-Corruption Commission. In this interview with Success Nwogu, he talks about corruption and how the Buhari government could win the war against graft

As the former chairman of the anti-corruption arm of the NBA, what are your observations of the level of corruption in the judiciary and the legal profession?

I was lucky to be the pioneer chairman of the NBA Anti-Corruption Commission in 2012. That was the first time it came on and I was chosen as the first chairman. I finished my tenure after two years and I left.

There is so much rumour about corruption both from the bench and the bar. To substantiate this has always been a problem. And fortunately, the way Nigerians are, they do not believe that if two people go to court, one will come out victorious and the other will come out defeated.

That is one problem. Second, most Nigerian litigants believe that justice could be bought.Thirdly, we have a penchant to spread unconfirmed rumours.

So as chairman of Anti-Corruption Commission, we set in place concrete template where anybody that had concrete evidence of corruption either at the bench or the bar was encouraged to come forward with proof of graft against any lawyer or judge. Behold, for two years, nobody came forward. But we always hear this rumour. I think part of the problem is our attitude. When we lose, even in the game of football, we are not good sportsmen. We must assign reasons for our failure even when it is personal feeling or personal failure.

Rather than to sit down and look at where we went wrong, where we did not do it right, where we do not do what we ought to do, we try to look for scapegoat. This has extended to the various accusations against the judiciary.

I am not saying that the judiciary is a 100 per cent holistic clean Augean for angels, neither is the bar. But what I am saying is that the rumours are more vociferous than the actual thing that is going. That does not mean that we do not need to do self introspection. I can tell you, in the last three years and nine months or so that I have been a member of the Legal Practitioners Disciplinary Committee of the NBA, which is the tribunal that tries lawyers for offences of misconduct, I can tell you that a lot of our colleagues have been sanctioned on the account of things that border on corruption but not people who corrupted the judiciary, it is corruption in the profession generally. So for me, we must translate most of these accusations and allegations to concrete things that people who make the allegations will be forthcoming to say 'I was involved in so so case, I gave XYZ person XY sum or I sent XY.

Let me tell you, from the experience that I gathered, even before I became the Chairman of the Anti-corruption Commission, I recall some 15 years ago in Kwara State, a particular lawyer pretended that he was collecting money for a judge and because we are all free people, lawyers are free to talk to judges, he pretended as if he was going to the judge's chambers but he never entered the judge's chambers.

Meanwhile he had collected N400,000.00 at that time from his client, and he had given the impression that he had given it to the judge and that everything had been ‘settled,’ when there was nothing like that.

The judge is late now but retired honorably without any blemish. Luckily, the judge gave the judgement according to his conscience and the judgement was against the client of this lawyer. Then the bubble burst; it was then that the judge got to know for the first time because the litigant went to the judge and said, 'after the money I gave to you, you still delivered judgement against me." The judge said, ‘which money? Go and bring your counsel. The litigant said, "I gave money to my lawyer and he entered your chamber." The judge said, 'he never entered my chamber at any time.' When the lawyer knew that the lid had been broken, he ran away from this jurisdiction. You can see the level to which we go. So I just think that we should translate some of these allegations to concrete evidence that can be taken to court to prove against those who the allegations are made either as lawyers, or as judges.

How would you rate President Buhari's anti-corruption war?

I have said it elsewhere and the Presidency has replied me indirectly. I remember saying at an interview here that undoubtedly, the president is doing a lot to go against corrupt Nigerians but the real war against corruption has not started, because corruption is so pernicious. It is more than bribery. It is more than gratification. If you look at the World Bank and other multi-lateral bodies, the way they define corruption is very encompassing; influence peddling is a form of corruption; nepotism is a form of corruption because when you are nepotic, you will be giving things to people who are not qualified by the advertised criteria. Favoristim is a form corruption. Graft or gratification and bribery are just small part of the wider problem of corruption.

An official who has not collected money from anybody but in order to favour his brother who has applied for a contract leaks contract documents to his brother, that is another form of corruption. For me, the President has tried to deal with a few of the corrupt elements that had been identified but the fight against corruption itself is yet to start because there is a difference between corrupt people and the whole gamut of corruption.

For me, the fight against corruption will have to be a fight that will include and carry along and a lot of Nigerians will buy into it. Even now, virtually all the ministries in Nigeria either federal or state, it is till business as usual. Officials believe that they must be 'settled' or their palms must be greased for them to do their official duties.

Let me share something personal with you; I worked for an establishment and it was time for payment, somebody who was close to me then said 'sir you know how all these work? This was in 2016. I said, 'how does it work? He said, 'you know the boys who will prepare the papers will have to be given something.' I said, 'No I will not do that. I will not bribe anybody to do his official duties. They were employed to prepare the vouchers. They could keep the money for as long as they want but I will not bribe them.'

The money is still there now but I am not going to bribe because I believe if I preach something, I should be able to practise it in my own way. So it tells you that a lot of things are still going on, so we must address these ones. It may look simple. Somebody has stolen N10bn, it takes somebody who is in the habit of stealing less sum to steal bigger sum.

For me let us design a holistic, comprehensive template with which we will fight corruption, starting from when people are very young. Let us start from people in the primary schools upwards. How many of our students will not be prepared to give money to a lecturer in order to pass? How many parents will be prepared not to buy expos for their children to pass? So it is a very serious issue.

Since the confirmation of the Acting Chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, Mr. Ibrahim Magus nomination has been rejected by the Senate, shouldn't he be removed as acting EFCC chief legally?

I will give an African anecdote. Our people say somebody who wears white dress should not go close to oil because if you go near it, the consequences are very dire and if your white clothe is stained by oil, what do you do to it? You remove it.

Are you saying that Magu should be removed?

I am saying that if you go near oil as somebody who is wearing white agbada, and you are stained, you will not go out that way because people will start to stare at you and wonder what was the problem. So in order not to attract undue attention, remove the white agbada and put on something else.

But they are mere allegations which have not been confirmed?

All the things that EFCC has paraded, are they not allegations for which a lot of people’s careers had been destroyed? I always say it that what goes round comes round. Media trial, we all see the consequences. Anybody knows that EFCC starts its work by first of all going to the media before even they go to the court. You cannot complain if you are now a victim of a system you have instituted.

By now, shouldn’t the Secretary to the Government of the Federation, Babachir Lawal, be answering questions after stepping aside?

Has he stepped aside? He has not stepped aside. I expect his appointor to do what I have seen in many editorials that the president should do the needful and I support those editorial positions.

What is the needful?

It is for the President to tell him to step aside because he is holding such an important office. In fact, the SGF is the engine room of the government.

As a regime making anti-graft fight as its focus, how does the SGF still on his seat portray Buhari government?

It does not speak well because that office is just too important, it is central to everything the president does as President of Nigeria including very mundane things. I think, given the president's personal anti-corruption posture, and passport, I am sure he should run away from anything that will cast doubts on his personal disdain for corruption.

Would you say that we are winning the war even though people are not being jailed yet?

Jailing people does not translate to winning a war, any type of war. What will amount to winning the war against corruption in Nigeria is when majority of Nigerians believe that corruption is bad and most people shun it. As only as few people are made scape-goats and other people still believe that they could get smarter with the system even when attempts are made to deal with corruption,, we are not going anywhere. The top-to-bottom approach to the fight against corruption will not work. It must be a mass movement. Majority of Nigerians must know that this thing is killing us but majority of Nigerians as I am talking do not see corruption as a problem. And until we get to the level that most people see it as a problem, then we are not out of the wood.

Magu was nominated as EFCC head by Buhari but a sister outfit DSS forwarded a damaging security report to the senate without taking the presidency into confidence, how would you describe such government?

I do not think that the DSS is supposed to do its work by taking the presidency into consideration. I think by not taking the presidency into consideration shows that they are being professional. If it is so, every investigation they make, they must first of all ask for approval whether it is right or wrong, it means that it is not investigation. So I think the DSS has done its professional job by first of all not disclosing the content of the report to anybody because under the DSS Act, the agency is supposed to act without any form of direction from any other person.

Some people have expressed fears that Buhari may not be in total control of his government with Magu's treatment, what do you think?

I am not in government. I would not know, but this allegation had been made by very prominent people. Initially, it was made by the Senate President, Dr. Bukola Saraki and then the President’s wife confirmed it in normal human language.

You mean that of EFCC?

I am talking about people making allegations that the President was not in control. The first person that made the allegation is the Senate President and it has been re-echoed and established by the person who should know best. That is the President's wife.

Some people have suggested that the suppression of the Shiites may lead to another Boko Haram? What is your view?

Force does not lead to the attainment of peace. I was lucky I was the counsel appointed to the Commission of Inquiry set up by the Governor of Kaduna State, Mallam Nasir El-Rufai on the Shiite/Nigerian Army clash of December 2015. I knew what we saw and luckily the report has become public and the White Paper has been published. You can kill an organisation but you cannot kill the idea. From my little knowledge of what I have seen during the Commission of Inquiry, the Shitte doctrine is an idea. So we must find a way to manage those who practise or who believe in that idea or the doctrine. You can not kill a doctrine. As we are still talking, people still believe in Nazism which was what led to the Second World War. So you can not kill any idea, you can even hardly suppress it. It is better we manage it as enlightened people.

You once said the utterance of Mr. President may have contributed to Nigeria’s current recession as it de-marketed Nigeria before the international community?

That's a view, there are other views. But for me, as a layman, I remember that in this country, oil at a time was $10, $11 even around 1999-2001 and there was no problem. We were living well. So why should it be because oil fell from $100 to $50, then our world came to an end. I think there is more than the problem of oil in this economic problem.

So what is the problem?

I think the general management of the economy is a factor, we have to take a holistic view of it and then revamp what we are doing. I do not believe that price of oil alone is why we are in this mess. Oil had sold for less than the half of the current price and Nigeria was doing well. I believe that something is wrong with our micro-economic management which should be addressed by those who know about it. And if you follow the comments in the newspapers, even by the former Central Bank of Nigeria Governor, who is now the Emir of Kano, Lamido Sanusi and others, they have always been talking that the economy had issues because things that ought to have been done were not done at the right time.

The former Minister of Finance, Dr. Ngozi Okonjo-Iweala is being quoted as having said that the utterances of President Muhammadu Buhari that many Nigerians are corrupt made investors to dis-invest in Nigeria?

All I need to say is that if you say that your daughter is a prostitute, you are not likely to get a reasonable suitor who will come to marry her. If outside there, people believe that we are all rogues, nobody will bring their money to a roguish country. So we have to do something about our image outside of this country.

What do you make of the allegations of bribery and other forms of corruption against some of your colleagues?

For me, I am not saying that all lawyers are angels, I know of myself. I know we have problems. I think proven cases of allegations of corruption should be dealt with according to the law and in accordance with the rule of law. That is my take. You will recall and I have said it before that anybody who has gone through a due process and he is convicted of corruption, he should have death penalty but people said, 'oh no, nobody is doing that again. Okay, Fine! But whatever it is, let us follow the rule of law, let us follow the path of due process and anybody, either you are a lawyer, whoever you are, once you fall foul of the rules and laws about corruption, you should face the consequences.

Some people believe that the trial of some judges is a way of cowing and intimidating the judiciary to do the executive's bidding. What is your opinion?

Whatever we do, due process is very important. I never raised any eye-brow that a judge that is corrupt should not be dealt with in accordance with the law. With the raid of DSS, my position is that we must do things in accordance with the dictates of the law. Except a common felon, somebody who is a declared felon running away from the law, it is not part of due process to go to the house of a serving judge, even any citizen's house in the dead of the night without a prior notification or a bench warrant, not to talk of serving judges. It sends a mixed signal to a lot of people.

If you were President Buhari, what would you do about the SGF, Babachir Lawal, Chief of Staff to the President of Nigeria, Abba Kyari; and Ibrahim Magu of the EFCC, with some of the allegations hanging on their necks?

If I were in the president's shoes, talking for myself, the least I will do is tell them to please excuse us until we clear the Aegean's table, until we clear these allegations. I will not allow them and we are investigating because from what had been established, since this regime came, a lot of people will be arrested first before the investigation will be done. So we should follow same since that is the style down the line.

Babachir Lawal has not come out to explain how a company he was connected with was awarded contracts among other allegations. Do you think his continued stay in office puts a question mark on Buhari's anti-corruption fight?

It shows impunity even from what he said. He said the Senate was saying rubbish and that it was balderdash. Imagine that kind of a language from a top ranking official of the government. Balderdash, not even Donald Trump of United States uses such a language against the second important arm of the government, which is the legislature.

Some people say even though no court of law has found him guilty, he ought to step aside till investigations are concluded. What do you think of that?

I think that is the normal thing that should have happened because that office is too central and too sensitive for anybody staying in that office to have any form of collar of allegation of corruption against him, and then, this time by the Senate of the Federal Republic of Nigeria and not by an individual.

This government has been accused of not obeying court orders and so on in a democratic setting. What is your take on that?

Everything the government must do must be in accordance with the rule of law. And for me, anybody whose right has been breached in that way should approach the court. I do not like general allegations. People must be specific, which court orders have they not obeyed? Those whose rights had been breached, they should know what to do.

What implication do you think this will have on democracy if indeed this government is guilty of not obeying the court?

That will be invitation to anarchy. It is in the interest of government to obey court orders. If government does not obey court orders, then citizens can take laws into their hands and what we will have at the end of the day is a state of anarchy. So it is not in our interest for our government not to obey court orders because it sends the wrong signal to the citizens that they too can also take laws into their hands. When they do, of course, there will be no country.

What do you think of the continued detention of leader of the Nigeria’s Islamic Movement, Ibrahim El Zakzaky; the former National Security Adviser, Sambo Dasuki; and the leader of Indigenous People of Biafra, Nnamdi Kanu?

You will recall, at least Kanu has some cases in court, so I am sure his lawyers should know what to do. Dasuki's lawyers should know what to do. El Zakzaky is a different ball game. He has not been charged to any court. So I think in his case, government should act fast by releasing him because he has not been charged to any court and he has not been accused of any offence. So I believe it is high time, he was left alone after almost two years in detention.

But a Commonwealth Court had ruled that Dasuki should be released and also a court had given a ruling that Kanu should be released on bail?

I think government must obey those orders to send a correct signal. It does not matter who is distasteful. For me, we should all remember that power is too transient for us to believe that we can ride roughshod over the rule of law.

Do you think all of them or any one of them is being held illegally or being denied their constitutional rights?

To my knowledge, those who are in court, at least they are in court. But El zakzaky is not in court; he is nowhere and nobody has come to say, this is what he did. So I believe that government should do the needful and wash its hands off that apparent detention which does not appear to have the support of anything in the law.

People sometimes wonder what lawyers consider before taking up cases.What do you consider before you decide to take up a case brought to you by someone?

First of all, I must believe in your case. I must believe in the cause you are trying to fight or defend before I take up your case.

Second, of course, I have my own moral codes. If you bring a matter and I found that it falls short of what I term to be my own moral code, as civil as it is, I will excuse myself. But I do not impose my own moral codes on others. I believe that a man is the aggregate of the totality of his experience in life and the way he was brought up. I do not take all cases, no matter how juicy. I place them on some scales; professional scale, my moral scale, my faith scale etc before I say yes or no.

This government makes it appear that lawyers defending alleged corrupt persons are bad. What is the ideal situation? Should people seen to be corrupt not be defended by lawyers?

The government is being unfair. So all those lawyers who are prosecuting those people, they are angels? The constitution has mapped out what I call division of labour. When you accuse a man, there is presumption of innocence. And the law says he is entitled to be defended. You can not accuse a man of committing illegality by performing his legitimate constitutional duty. Lawyers are the same set of people who are also prosecuting the accused people. Are they not entitled to be defended? I think the government seems not to appreciate that we play different roles in the society and that those different roles propel the society to move forward.

If lawyers can defend anyone, at what point can it be said then that a lawyer has erred in the performance of his job?

Except a lawyer deliberately uses the instrumentality of the law to sabotage the law itself; as long as what he is doing is legal and is within the provision of the law and it is supported by our constitution, it is legitimate. It is only a time when the lawyer steps out of the bounds of his duties to do something different, then you can say, oh yes, he has gone beyond what the law says.

So a lawyer ordinarily cannot be accused of having done something wrong just because he takes up the defence of somebody; even the greatest felon is entitled to be defended in the law court.

People accuse lawyers of aiding corruption because some of them use technicality just to defend their clients who are accused of corruption and other societal ills. How do you respond to that?

Lawyers take their jobs to defend an accused person or prosecute as the case may be. The fact that a lawyer deploys his professional tactics to defend his client does not take him away from his job. It is only when he does something totally outside of the law to protect or defend the client that the problem comes. So as long as what the lawyer is doing is within the confines of the four walls of law and the constitution, it is a legitimate thing to do.

So how do you respond to Southern Kaduna killings and herdsmen and farmers clashes?

They are all by-products of this settlers/indigenes syndrome. Some people believe that some are just visitors there even though third generations of such people were born and bred there. Many of them only knew by history where their fore-fathers migrated from. If you now tell them that they should go back to their places, places where people do not even know and they cannot even understand them and even some of them cannot even speak the language of their forebears. So we must find a way to address these issues, they are killing us as a nation.