Date: 2010-10-16

As part of Nigerian Village Square's interview series with all aspirants for the 2011 Presidential election, Governor of Kwara State, Dr Bukola Saraki sat down for an hour-long interview with members of the NVS editorial team (Ikhide Ikheloa, Pius Adesanmi, Farooq Kperogi and Philip Adekunle on Saturday, October 16th, 2010. Below is the transcript and audio file of the interview:

INTRODUCTION

Why do you believe that you're the best qualified to rule Nigeria at this point in time?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Ok thank you very much; it is my pleasure to welcome you all and I thank you for this opportunity. I also congratulate your website for what you're doing, which I believe proceeds from the same vision with what I am trying to do. Why do I say that? We all grew up dreaming of what an ideal country should be like; what professionalism in media used to be like and; what governance should be like and so on. What we are seeing today is a situation where Nigerians are saying to the world that I am as good as everyone out there; I can be the best and I can live up to what it takes to be measured against the best anywhere. I believe that what you are doing in your sector flows from the same ‘can do' spirit. And that is what I am also saying; that we can do something similar in government. We can be among the best in the world; we can change things.

We just celebrated 50 years of independence and; none of us is satisfied with the way Nigeria is. Can anyone say that the Nigeria we have today is the Nigeria we dreamt of? The answer, I am sure, is NO. This is not because we do not have the resources - natural and human - but because we lack the resourcefulness at the level of leadership to make these huge resources work for us.

The opportunity I have had in public sector as State Governor in the past 7 years has given me the opportunity to see that the issue of Nigeria is really about leadership and capacity. I believe that the experience I have acquired as Governor of Kwara State; the capacity that I have demonstrated, is a major credential here. This is a state that is 34^th in the order of Federal revenue allocations; a State that was more or less civil service-driven, where the economy depended overwhelmingly on the monthly salaries of workers. In 7 years, we have taken this same State and turned it to an investments haven; where I have vigorously driven the issues of Agriculture and Education, among others. I hope I will have the opportunity to expatiate on that for you to appreciate what I am really talking about.

Out of all the candidates out there, I believe I have that ability and capacity to turn Nigeria around. The enormity of the task ahead, and the urgency it requires, does not allow for ‘trial and error' or leaving things to chance. If I felt that the old ways, the old thinking, the way we used to do things can work for us now, I'll not be in this race. What we need now is a President who can truly provide leadership; a leader that has the courage to take on the necessary reforms; a leader who is decisive, and who is ready to embrace new and innovative ideas and ways of doing things. This is what has worked for Kwara State. Take agriculture; for many years, many people have complained, for example, about how we have lost the groundnuts pyramids in Kano, but nobody has actually done anything about this. I came to Kwara and assessed quickly that the way forward for anyone to move Nigeria forward is through agriculture and I focused on this and drove the process.

We can produce 20 million barrels of oil, but we are doing 2.5million now. But even if we are able to do the 20million barrels, or even if we produce oil from every part of Nigeria; it is still not going to provide enough jobs and it will not take our people out of poverty. The only thing that can take us out of poverty is agriculture and food security. What I am saying therefore is that when we ask ourselves who is best qualified to lead this nation. We must also ask who has the capacity to know what it takes to drive the economy and create jobs; who has that capacity to achieve food security; who has capacity to deliver the necessary infrastructure and address the issues of education.

How many of those aspiring to be President today have clear agricultural policies. But I can tell you from Day One, May 29th or June 1st 2011; I can tell you what will happen six months down the line, what I will do in the areas of rice production or Dairy. I can assure you that by the end of year 2, this is how many jobs we will create in the dairy sector alone and so on…

Let me take you up on that. You said you know what you will do in six months, one year and so on. In your first 100 days – Let's assume this is June 2011 and you are now the President of Nigeria. In your first 100 days, what would you seek to achieve?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: The chief sector is agriculture. First 100 days, first two weeks, I will turn around agriculture. Let's take the dairy sector. Today we spend about 1.5 billion dollars a year importing dairy products, especially milk. In Kwara State, we have farms producing 6000 liters of milk and our national requirement is about 6million liters. That is a huge gap.

The first thing to do therefore is put in place policies that will bridge such gaps. This is what we have started to do in Kwara. In Nigeria today, if you drink WAMCO milk, part of that milk is coming from Kwara State, from Tsonga. We were able to do this by mobilizing private sector investments into the sector. You create a programme that will ensure that over a two year period, dairy companies are able to move from 10% local content requirement to 90%. This is what we are doing in Kwara.

So, as President, I will sit down with all the WAMCOs, the Hollandias, etc; and say okay, you are now at 10%, in two years I want you to move up to 20% and maybe 100% down the road.

…In 100 days though….

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: No; that's how it starts… if in 100 days, which is three months, I put a scheme in place that will seek to move, us say, from 2000 liters to 200,000 liters; immediately, you will see the banks weighing in to finance it. One of the problems is also that there are no outlets for our farmers. So, if you make this policy and you now take the 200,000 liters and you divide it among the dairy manufacturers, then you would have created a huge demand, a ready market, which will also mean more jobs, and more money in people's pockets.

…so what you are suggesting is like, graduated objectives

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Graduated objectives yes, but the first thing is to have policies to support it; you must give the manufactures the right ‘sweeteners'. The ‘sweeteners' will be things like giving credit on import duties. I will sustain the market, by ensuring that anyone who does backward integration pays duties at 5%; if not you pay duties at 15%. So, in the end, it is better to invest in backward integration. There are millions of cattle herders that are going around - you see them with their cows everywhere. We take them to collection centers; they go there, give milk and collect 100 naira every day. This is already happening in Kwara. So I will graduate this in three months.

VIABILITY OF CAMPAIGN

Dr. Saraki, how would you convince Nigerians, especially Nigerians in the Diaspora, that you are a serious candidate? How will your campaign be funded? And, tell us a little bit: do you have sponsors for your campaign?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: You see, first of all we are talking about the campaigns for the party primaries, not general elections yet. That is the first stage, right?

In the primary elections, the people you have to focus on are the party delegates. And this is not so much about money as it is about what you are able to make them believe about you. Here, you are talking to 3,400 delegates. You go from state to state; you sit down with House of Assembly members, Senators, House of Representatives members, party chairmen and Council Chairmen. These people are opinion leaders; they're the delegates and they really have to believe in you and the policies that you're presenting. So, I don't think that's where the real expense on political campaigning is not at this level.

By the time you get to the general elections, you have already become the party's flag bearer. The campaign at that stage becomes a party responsibility. But that is if you're in PDP. For those who are not in PDP, from day one it is an uphill task because they need to push their party. It's a small party and they have to spend money in pushing the party itself.

So, my real expense is at the level of winning the ticket of the party. And I feel that as a Governor, who's been chairman of the Governors' Forum for 3 years, it should not be too difficult for me because these are my colleagues, and they know me. The PDP primaries are about the Governors really; it's about elected officials and it's about people you know and who know you, and they are not people that you need to fund. So, it is about them believing that DR BUKOLA SARAKI's administration will make Nigeria better. It is about the awareness, the grassroots. The people are already sponsoring those they believe in; especially the younger generation. You'd be surprised I get a lot of calls from people who say, "Look we really believe that it's time for our own generation to provide leadership." There are people in the private sector who are running business who want a different attitude from the public sector. They are losing money now because they're working with governments that do not appreciate the importance of agreements, the importance of honoring commitments, and they are tired of this Nigeria, and they want a different Nigeria. So, people like that have realized that they've got to take ownership.

Like I keep saying, I am not doing this for me. This is my generation. It is for people like you. See, most of you guys who're in the Diaspora, I am sure you don't want to be in the Diaspora. You want to be in Nigeria. But how can you be in a country where people don't appreciate you; where you have to beg to invest. I mean, it is only in this country you see things like that. We should be running after prospective investors who make enquiries about investing in our country. In Kwara State, if any investor comes, he sees me; he doesn't see my commissioners, he sees me. And that's why today I have two people who want to build shopping malls in Kwara State. I mean, Kwara is not normally high on the scale. If you're talking about malls; you talk about Abuja. Yet, I now have Shoprite and I have Park and Shop, both coming to do business because I am the one that physically goes to them. That is how to make the state investment-friendly.

So, as president you guys will definitely have in me, somebody who understands business and its importance. Most of the guys who are working with me see my presidential aspiration as the quest for new Nigeria or modern Nigeria. They believe in it and they're working and making contributions to the campaign.

Ok let me ask a follow-up question to your viability. When you first came out, a lot of people said it's a proxy for IBB and after then you had a meeting with that man, IBB. And there's this talk of having a one northern candidate. I want you to address those fears…that is it a real campaign or is it something that's a proxy for someone else…….?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: No, no, no, c'mon; I am not a proxy for IBB or for anybody. I am the chairman of the Governors' Forum. I have been chairman of Governors' Forum for 3 years. If you understand the politics within political parties, I was comfortable as chairman of Governors' Forum. All I needed to do was to just sit down there. Every aspirant would come to me. Every aspirant would offer me something in their administration because they know that by virtue of how I've carried myself in the last 3 years, I am respected among my colleagues and I should be able to influence things. They know that if I told my colleagues, "let's move to this direction," they were likely to move that way. So that was an easy option for me, if was a typical politician.

Therefore, for me to risk all that; to say I'm resigning as chairman of the Governors' Forum, and I am taking on the sitting President from our own party; that certainly can't be for proxy or for anything else. This is what I believe in. People only talk about Babangida, but I also talk to Atiku just like I talk to General Gusau. I still go to the Economic Council meetings where the Vice President is Chairman. So, I don't believe that because we have party primaries, it means we are at war. No, it's a party affair - we are not at war.

You know, we got to understand one thing that I have realized. Because of successive poor leadership we have had in this country, people have become very skeptical. People don't want to believe anything anymore. And I don't blame them because if you have been let down so many times, it is hard for you not to be skeptical or cynical. Even for me, what gives me hope is what I have seen in our own generation: the attitude, the energy, the approach is generally different. If you take a look at every sector; look at your sector, look at oil and gas sector, look at other sectors as well, and you see people of our generation doing very well and able to stand among the best in the world. This is my inspiration. I strongly believe that with the party I am in, and connection I have developed over the years, given the chance, Nigeria will definitely be better. So, I am not here ‘proxying' for anybody or anything like that. It is not about proxy, no.

ETHICS AND LEADERSHIP

I have a number of questions in the area of ethics and leadership generally and because you've been mentioning your leadership of the governors' forum, so that's a good way to get into the recent controversy over the Governors' Forum and Harvard, and I'm sure that you're aware that it didn't go down well with Nigerians, you know, because it created the impression that the governors were sort of trying to go to Harvard to learn on the job and apart from the perception that it was going to cost us a bunch of money. So what's that all about? What was the judgment behind that? And how does that speak to your own sense of judgment and to your own leadership quality; that you sided up with that sort of project…?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: OK. I am glad you have asked this question. Whether you're in the public sector or you're in the private sector, I'm sure that most chief executives heading companies today, most of them that are in top positions have been to some of the best schools, whether you call them business schools or you call them universities to achieve excellence on the job.

Now, what about governance? You get elected in Nigeria as a Governor, or as whatever, and from day one you start the process of administration. Ok, fine. But take a country like America; they have a system supported by institutions that have existed for more than a hundred years, where even from day one even, before you win the election, there are people that sit you down and take you through the process of policy making. They take you through the complexities and intricacies of governance. These are former Governors, former Chiefs of Staff, former Presidents, who will sit down with you and talk about "how do you make your government work?" I know this in the course of my interaction with the National Governors Association, which is like our own Nigeria Governors' Forum. This association was founded in 1908 and one of their key tasks is providing management and technical support to new and sitting Governors.

In our country, you find many people who become governors, and it is only after they have been sworn in that they now ask themselves, "ok, I'm governor now, what am I going to do?" Unfortunately, this is more common than you think. From my experience, I know that many people who find themselves in public offices are not prepared well for it.

Now, it doesn't matter whether it was in Harvard, it could have been in Nigeria, the issue is this: we need to take the business of governance serious enough and create opportunities for people at that level to continue to update their competencies just like we do in the business sector when people become Directors or Executive Directors; you train them, and continue to train them. Even editors continue to go back to school to learn and update their knowledge. We cannot expect government to perform at the same level of efficiency as the private sector and demand a different level of preparedness or competency. We are the ones directing the policies that affect all your lives. Now, as I've said, Nigerians have become so cynical that when people saw it they said, "Oh don't mind them, they are just going there. They want to go and spend money." It's unfortunate that this was the perception. I believe the PR of that initiative was not properly managed; people did not see the good intention because over time we have lost the confidence and trust in our leaders.

But do you know what I say to people? Mistakes have been made in the past. We have to move forward. What is happening around the world today? Most of these colleges, Harvard and all of them, conversations are going on in those institutions; leaders of all over the world are going there and sharing ideas. You've got to be a part of that. You've got have opportunities to share ideas of best practices, to say, "Look, what is your education policy? What worked then and why?" And you only hear that by sitting down and talking to people, the same thing in business. When you're running a business you sit down with people and ask what did you do? How did you do it? What worked for you? But unfortunately, maybe the PR could have been better done—getting the people to come to Nigeria and organizing it, maybe. But, by and large we've learnt from that, but it was not done for any frivolous reason. I also don't think that should let us run away from the significance of ensuring that our leaders have the right exposure and engagement with issues. We should go beyond "I want to be this, I want to be that." What are your plans? What do you have? How many of the people who aspire to public office do we challenge to say what plans they have on education, on health…

OK, Dr. Saraki, if I may come in here. Please, because this goes into.. goes directly to judgment, couldn't the Governors' Forum have approached a Nigerian university, one of the federal universities? You could have done this thing in Ibadan, for example. You could have done it in Nsukka, ABU, in UNILAG, you know, all the top-tier universities, you know. So what does it say that Harvard was the first thing that came to your mind?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Harvard was not the first thing that came to our mind per se. Like I said, part of the challenges that we have is also to improve the capacity of our own universities to undertake some of these responsibilities. How many of the Professors or lecturers in our universities have been presidents, governors, ministers, or senators before? Real life experience also matters.

Moreover, we are practicing an American political system. I mean we could have gone to Oxford or Cambridge, or we could have gone to INSEAD in Europe. No, we chose an American institution because that's the political system that we are practicing and the best people in doing that are the people who have operated similar structures for many years and are ahead of us. And generally, I don't think there is any problem in trying to be better and learn from people who have done greater things than you.

Well, maybe there is a level that you are right. Just like the state of our healthcare system. Why do people go to hospitals abroad instead of staying with our hospitals here? It is the same thing. It's because our own institutions here are not able to provide some level of service. These are problems that we have inherited. They did not start today. And the kind of training that we are recommending is also an important part of solving some of these problems.

I agree with you that what we should be doing is improving those institutions. But that's another problem on its own. But we must accept that we are not there yet. I mean, when you are even struggling to rank among the first 100 in Africa.

So, I think it is the perception deficit that our leaders suffer from that made that call bad. If our people were not suspicious of our leaders, I don't think anybody would have questioned that. In the private sector people go, or even from the media that go for one year to Harvard or Oxford or MIT and nobody questions that. People say, "Oh you're trying to improve yourself." I think it's because people have lost faith in our leadership.

CORRUPTION

Let's talk about corruption, Dr. Saraki. We've heard some of your co-contestants on this program, as you may be aware, and we do ask them what they intend to do about corruption, but I'm going to take a different tact with you because you're the leader of the… the chairman of the Governors' Forum. So I'm not going to ask you what you intend to do about corruption. You're aware that Mr. Donald Duke, a former colleague of yours, basically accused all governors of…. I don't know how to put it, of getting into office through corruption, because he says there's no other way to get into office, I'm sure you're aware of those…, so what do you have to say about that?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: I don't agree that everyone gets into office only by corruption. I don't agree with that general statement. In any group of people, definitely there would be those who are good and those who are not good. So, I don't think that you should generalize that in every election, everybody that gets into office does to through corruption. I think it will be wrong to generalize. Definitely there will be some, don't get me wrong, but I can only speak for myself….

Let me take a different tact He was talking about structures, that the structure is so flawed, the process is so flawed, that there's no good way to get into it, you know without….

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: No, no, no. I think there is a good way. And I believe that the good way starts from what we're all trying to do in ensuring that everybody's vote counts. You see when you have elections in a society where majority of electorates, that means you, me, everybody do not show interest in participating, it gives room for those kinds of issues we are talking about. But in a society where everybody is participating, everybody is taking part, for example if you look at what is happening now in Nigeria you cannot compare the election in 2011 to the kind of election you would have had in 1999. 1999 I'm sure you must have had probably voters' turnout, maybe 10% and that creates room definitely for all kinds of abuses. So, what I'm saying is that the responsibility is not just for politicians; the responsibility is for us as a country and a people. Once we all participate, definitely some of these malpractices that might happen will be significantly reduced. So that's the point, if we continue to have greater participation by Nigerians and we have a responsible INEC, then it is possible for anybody who has a good program, who can present that program, to win elections without being corrupt.

Definitely, Nigerians are now are beginning to identify people that can perform and people that cannot perform. If they have opportunity, where their votes would count, then they'll be able to vote people in as well as vote them out of office. In the past, what used to happen was that the middle class would sit down at home; they don't go out to vote. The only people going out to vote are people, who have poverty issues, and they're not going there to vote; they're going there to earn something. So, those are the kinds of challenges that you have. So who is corrupt in the society? It's not just enough to say that people are corrupt. So these are the kinds of things that allows for it. All of us at different levels must take the blame for it; and in going forward we all have to play active role in the process. I am not defending it, don't get me wrong. But I'm saying that those are the challenges that we have all lived with, and I'm happy now that what you are doing, the awareness that you are creating and all these kinds of things in the media, in the civil society, those are the kinds of things that are making these changes happen.

The question I have is about your record at Societe Generale. Of course, we know that the bank has collapsed and you are a central figure in the running of the bank and its failure. How can you inspire confidence in Nigerians—I am asking this question on behalf of Nigerians—how can you inspire confidence that your record at Societe Generale is not a reflection of your managerial skills? Ehm, what happened there? What happened at Societe Generale? What responsibility can we— what blame can we apportion to you?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Well I think I've got to be careful of what I say here because of the litigation involved. But there are basically two issues involved. One is the issue of skill. I think I have shown the level of my managerial skills in the last seven and half years as Governor. Second, is the issue of business; if you know the history of the bank from the time we were involved, there was significant growth of the bank. Yes, the bank had a problem at a time, which could have been tackled differently and that is why Central Bank came in. The issue went to court and the court ruled that the bank was not given a fair hearing before its license was withdrawn. That is why the bank now is in the process of opening its doors.

But I think that the question of my managerial skills does not come in. As I said, you would have to look in details what some of the issues are and also what we have been able to do in the last seven and half years. I am one of the few governors in the last seven years, even when you had the former EFCC Chairman; I was one of the governors that was given a clean bill of health. We were the first state to bring in Fitch and have independent rating. So I believe that I have demonstrated my managerial skill. Definitely there were problems then, but I believe also that at that time there were some political decisions that were taken by the head of the supervision that resulted in us not resolving the challenges that we had. And I believe that that is why the court has passed that kind of judgment that has now allowed the bank to commence the process of opening its doors so that those depositors will get their funds back.

So the bank is going to re-open? When is it going to re-open?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Yeah, I am not involved in the day-to-day running of the bank, but from the information I have I am sure very soon it will do that.

SECURITY AND STATE POLICE

Let me quickly go to security. What would you do if you're the president of Nigeria, on security situation? How can we arrest the situation: armed robbery, bombings, MEND, all these things?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Well I think that there are three different issues. First of all, the key issue is how we will ensure that every life counts. It might sound simple, but I believe as a government, we must appreciate that every life counts. What do I mean by every life counts? Every life counts in the sense that you know we have situations where people have lost their lives and we just move on and the government does nothing. A Nigerian is stuck in one part of the world or has died in another country, does it really matter? That is the problem.

Now, when we set out to affirm how important the life of every Nigerian is, then definitely we have to start holding people accountable. Holding people accountable is key to having performance. Because in a situation where some drivers are reckless, caused an accident and people and nobody is held accountable will not discourage that kind of behaviour. The same applies to the issue of security agencies; we have to begin to hold people accountable. Especially when we talk about the police, we talk about retraining, equipment and things like that, but you know, to be honest with you, some security organizations are ……………

(Cuts in) Do you believe in state police?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Yeah I believe in state police.

How would you make that happen?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: I believe in state police. You see, even at the moment, we have ‘state police', because the State Governors pay their allowances. The State Governor buys the equipment. The State Governor buys the vehicle. It is the state governor that does everything apart from paying salaries. In combating crime, you must ensure that forces that combat crimes know the environment and are part of the environment. Now, the danger has to do with our concern, you know, that those who are sitting as governors, are they responsible enough that they will not abuse those privileges of state police, particularly if we decide to have elections that count and people know that with or without police, the INEC, Nigerians will always defend their vote, then those kind of fears will be reduced and then we can now allow the states to actually thrive on their resources.

A lot of things will come into play. You have train more officers because this is not the purview of the state. Definitely you will have to engage in discussions and debates and let Nigerians and all of us agree to the policy and address the fears. I think we will gain more from State Police than those threats suggest. Those fears appear to have been inherited for a while that once a governor has state police, oh, he's going to intimidate all the political opponents. But if we believe that we have a strong system that ensures that even the opposition in a free and fair election can seek redress, the way that the judiciary has shown that they'll always ensure that justice prevails, then the issue of police and security will no longer be as significant in elections as it is currently feared. But for the improvement of security? Definitely, state police.

NIGER DELTA AND MEND

The situation with MEND is really appalling and it's easy to sympathize with the situation in the Niger Delta. Tell us what concrete negotiation steps not just military.

What concrete negotiation steps, not just military action will you take to address the cause of the MEND to enable them to permanently cease fighting and bring about a lasting peace. It appears obviously that the amnesty plan initiated by Late President Yar'Adua is no longer on track. So what are your thoughts with the situation on MEND?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: I think first of all, you should know I was one of those that commended the initiatives that seek to redress the issue through negotiation, both personally and through the Governors' Forum. You remember that at the time, a lot of people did not think it could work.

Now, the fact that the MEND and all the other militants are giving it a chance to work, I think we should build on that. What are the issues that have not made it to work now? I think they are mainly administrative inefficiencies or funding issues, and I believe that as a government we must do all it takes to make it work. What commitments have the government made? I know government made commitments on relocation centers, rehabilitation centers. I know up to date we are behind on schedule on that. This may be due to underestimation of the cost or how much it will take to resettle the militants or find alternatives for them, because these are individuals who we are trying to start a new life for.

I believe in that negotiation. I believe that government must honour its commitments whatever those commitments are because that is the only way we can build trust. Whatever funding is required must be made a priority, because the MEND, the militants, have shown good intention in at least giving that a chance and we must not lose that opportunity.

Let me ask a follow-up. Obviously, if you look at the Niger Delta, there are a lot of young people who are otherwise under employed, if not unemployed. You have done a lot of work…some of it controversial, with the white farmers from Zimbabwe.

What have been your lessons from that initiative and have you thought about a vision of, perhaps, scaling it up to a national model as the part that has been successful? What would you do differently and how would you scale it up?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: I have done that already. It was my initiative or my model that went towards some of the things you are seeing being done by the government, started by the Yaradua government, which provided the 300 billion single digit loan that was given out to commercial farmers. It was based on the model here in Kwara State that we need to provide adequate funding in that sector.

Now what we have also done here is create what I call youth farm, a youth farm school basically, for what I call new generation Nigerian farmers. You see, one of the points you have to understand it that most of the farmers in Nigeria are aged 60s, 70s, late 50s. Majority of then do not even have primary education, so their ability to write a credit proposal or business plan is zero. There at a time when we have to see farming as business, the future has to be this kind of young Nigerians whom we must bring to appreciate that agriculture can be a good source of livelihood.

The challenge is how do we get those young Nigerians who would rather work in the banks, the telecommunication companies and so on, to look at agriculture? The way to do it is to look at agriculture, not as a primary produce but as an agro-allied industry. This model, we found has worked for young people. What do I mean by that? You do not just tell the farmer go and grow cassava. No, tell them to grow cassava and then set up a starch plant next door, right? Or a cassava flour next door. This way, the young guy grows the cassava, processes the cassava and the next thing he is supplying Dangote, or supplying Flour Mill and he is now doing business.

So that is the model that we have put in place here. It is working and that is why I said earlier on that I feel very strongly about it that we can create millions of jobs for particularly these young teeming Nigerians who at the moment might not find agriculture as interesting. But when you have a value chain process it becomes a different thing, not only in cassava, you can talk about milk, you can talk about rice processing and so on.

When all these become agro allied business, then you find a lot of young Nigerians who can actually take it up. Most of them have come out of the universities. They are unemployed. They are computer literate. They can write business plans, and they have the energy and as such you find out that, by and large, that the production of those young people is much higher than the subsistence farming that we have presently in Nigeria. So that model exists, and that is the model I plan to run, to pull through in different states and as a national policy.

I want to ask a question about power rotation between the North and the South which is the big issue now in the Nigerian political arena. Recently, President Jonathan was quoted as saying that your position on power shift is inconsistent with the reality of your state, Kwara State, where your sister is being prepared to succeed you. What do you say in response to that? Your sister, Gbemisola Saraki, is widely believed to be crowned…

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: [Cuts in] Well, with all due respect, I don't want to respond to Mr. President's comment. I have said that my campaign is not on personal issues. I will rather talk about zoning generally, and I will address the two issues. But, as I have always argued, those of us in this generation must ensure that politics in this country is kept at the level of real issues that will improve the lives of Nigerians, you, me and ordinary people, as opposed to that kind of things that President Jonathan said.

Now on the issue of zoning, as I said, I am not making zoning a frontline issue. I have talked about what I will do in agriculture, job creations and education later on, because I believe these are what Nigerians really care about. But we cannot run away from it because we all belong to a party that has a constitution. A constitution is the booklet that tells you how that party operates and I didn't put those rules there. President Jonathan didn't put the rules there. You didn't put the rules there, but they are there. For as long as they are still there and we as a society has agreed that we will abide by those rules, then definitely we must live with those rules, particularly when it has to do with the presidency where there are clear cut agreements and understanding.

Now, that is on the issue of zoning at the federal level. Zoning at the state level does not even exist as an agreement. It is not the same as the federal level. But I have said that in our State, we are going to provide a level playing field for everybody at the end of the day, for the party and the people to decide. So when you use the word ‘crown', I mean, there is no issue of crowning here. There is going to be a free and fair election. I have given my position that I am not in any way going to interfere. I am going to allow Kwarans and I believe that Kwarans, by and large, will decide who they want to become governor. I am not going to in anyway interfere with that process and I have said that and my views on this are known.

So, on the issue of the president, the party has met. It is not that the party is second guessing. The party met. There is a document signed. There is a resolution where certain understandings were made: eight years in the south, eight years in the north. And those are the issues in the party, concerning the office of president. We cannot run away from that.

But that does not say that Mr. President cannot contest. Nobody has said that. But we are saying that those are what the issues are. Nevertheless, I as an individual believe that there are more serious issues to offer more than just zoning, and I don't want us to just talk as if zoning is the only thing out there that we are all running on. We are running on a platform that talks about performance, generational change and capacity at all levels. Don't let us narrow it down to just the issue of zoning.

EDUCATION

We have little time here and we have to tuck in education and I am happy, I don't know how we got here. Somehow, we got to education because you mentioned education while answering the question on zoning and about your sister, Senator Gbemisola Saraki. It is as well good that we should go into education. First, I am happy with what is going on in Kwara State University which seems to be a kind of blueprint for you and, by the way, you should know that two of my colleagues and mentor are there working with you…

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: ...are back in Kwara. I know that. I know that…

The vice chancellor Professor Abdul Na'Allah and Professor Irele., But whatever good news that is coming out of Kwara State University is happening in a broader context of a total national disaster in education and that gets me wondering. How are you going to expand or broaden whatever you are doing to the national level where things gets much more complicated..

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Okay, I am happy we are now going to real issues. This is crucial and a very good question and I hope you will ask this question from everybody that is running for the presidency. These are issues that will really define Nigeria moving forward.

Now the problem we have is a lot of our leaders don't understand what the problem is. People say oh education is important. Yes it is. Why? are you surprised? And I will give you some of the reforms we have undertaken in the state.

You know, we carried out an interesting exercise in Kwara where we tested primary school teachers on primary 4 curriculum. I said to a class four teacher, "if you leave Musa's house at six o'clock and you arrive at Sani's house 40 minutes later, what time do you arrive at Sanni's house?" Pius, you will not believe that more than 50% of the teachers could not pass that exam!

Now why I am telling you this is because when you talk to most people, they will tell you that I am going to build classrooms. I am going to build schools. I am going to do this. No, you find out that the fundamental issues are not even quantity; it is the quality of education that has collapsed completely.

What have we done in our state? First and foremost, under the UBEC program, you find out that whether you passed, you failed, you attend, it is satisfactory; you just go to the next class. We stopped it two and a half years ago. Here in Kwara State, you must do certain promotion examinations at certain level, at JSS, at senior class, before you move forward. If you don't pass it you go for remedial.

The curriculum at the primary school is about 16 subjects, in junior primary school- 14, when you don't even have basic competency in literacy and numeracy they are teaching somebody 14 subjects, when you don't even have the teachers. We have cut down that to about seven subjects. What I am saying to you, why I am putting this emphasis, is that any leader that doesn't even understand this cannot revive our education sector, because, it ‘s going to be driven by the system.

The system already is corrupt as it is and it will not change unless you understand it and you are ready to tackle it. For example, we are the only state that has prosecuted teachers for examination malpractices in the entire country today. We have been doing this now since 2008. If you are going to have the opportunity to come to the state you will see this.

So, primary education is the key. We must first address the issue of numeracy and literacy. We have to set benchmarks. We have a card we would give you, at Primary 1-6, at the end of each year this is what children should be able to do. The teacher has it. The parents have it. So if we can address numeracy and literacy first and get that right, which is not going to be by the present primary education policy, then we will begin to improve the quality of education.

Let me give you another example. This college of education, colleges of education is where you are meant to produce teachers to go and teach at the primary and Junior Secondary Schools, but you know what? Those that go to the college of education they didn't go there because they want to become teachers. They tried the universities, they didn't get in. They tried the polytechnics, they didn't get in. Then they go to the college of education. So they are not training to be teachers; they are doing political science, economics, then you want them to come out and come and teach 4-9 year old children in primary school? So we in Kwara now stopped all that process and at the moment our model is what is being adopted by the National Commission for Colleges of Education. So, these are models that we have shown to work and what we want to do, if one is given the chance to drive it. That is the major reason that it will work because the person that is driving it, that is me, I know what I am driving. The problem with most of our leaders is that they don't know the nitty gritty, so you find out at the end of the day they cannot push those policies.

Now you run a business or I don't know what your business or background is, but in a system where a guy who is leading you hasn't got a firm grasp of what it takes it is not going to work. That is why I say when we are talking about education, we are talking about health, we are talking about job creation, whoever wants to be the president of Nigeria must be able to understand these issues and understand what it takes.

I am saying this not because I knew it from day one. When I became governor I, like everybody else, thought the best thing was for me to open schools, build classrooms. I think I did it for the first two years and found out that the performance of Kwara students did not improve. I have learnt it from having the opportunity to now know what it takes to drive education, and that is why Kwara State University is different because I have learnt that it is quality, it is not just putting up a university. That is why I went out of my way to look for, and got the best, try and partner with the best because it is quality that matters and unless we address we won't get anywhere and that is what I believe that I will be able to address because I already know that without qualitative education you can't get anywhere. I know that even if you are teaching a child under a tree and it is qualitative that child would be able to read and write. We are teaching children in classrooms, they cannot read and write because the quality of education is bad and the approach is wrong. It is all about addressing what I call ‘every child counts.'

POWER

One of your signature policies is the quality of your power policy. You were able to generate power and made it reasonably stable in Kwara State. How do you hope to replicate this at the national level? What lessons did you learn in confronting the problem of power in Kwara State?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Well, you know in Kwara today we now have about 15-20 hours on average on power supply. Now, that is because, you know, we are the only NIP project that has been completed because the state government took the issue of transmission upon ourselves because everybody is talking about power generation.

You will find that majority of the problems is not even so much generation. You will find out that transmission, particularly, and distribution, but generally on power policy government has spent enough money.

Government should not spend any more money. We should get the private sector to come and invest today at the generation level. But there is no private sector company that will invest today in the generation level without government putting certain policies that will encourage them. What is the policy? How do you guarantee me if I deliver say, 5000MW, how do you guarantee me that I will get paid. Government has to give it. I am sorry we don't have that credit rating. That is the big obstacle. So, we have to give some guarantee on revenue outflow. Governments do not have to spend money on power generation. The private company will drive that, so you are now limiting your expenditure, if at all, on transmission, on distribution, you privatize.

Again, the private sector will be collecting at the level of distribution, so you find that at the end of the day, it is more driven by the private sector. If it is driven by the private sector, this so-called challenge of power that looks to us as big, huge, will not be.

Again, Farooq, it is not about this thing being impossible, but the person who is driving it must know his onions, because when you are sitting down meeting with all these guys in the system without understanding the issues, they will run rings round you and convince you that "oh, you need to put more money in this, you need to put money in that. No, how can Nigeria give guarantee? We are too big to give guarantee?" Farooq! If we don't give guarantee, nobody is going to invest in your generation.

Yes, we are big but you know what? We don't have the credibility. So, let us get out of that dream and come down to reality. We have to do certain things that will make people come and invest and those are the things that I will be able to put down because I understand it enough to say look minister of finance, Central Bank, I don't want to hear it, this man has promised us 5000MW investment. Let's meet whatever condition he has so that he is sure of the revenue and then he will make the investment.

And then some of this plants, some of this thermal plants that we have we should privatize them. We should sell them. Let people manage them, but when you have a thermal plant that people know that if they remove one spare part today they will put up a memo tomorrow and collect money, it is not going to happen. So what I am saying is that it looks difficult; it is not difficult if whoever is driving that process understands the process and has the sincerity or commitment.

It is not as challenging as you think it is and that is what we have shown at the state level. Why have we got light in Kwara? Because when everybody else in Nigeria was arguing whether we should finish the NIP project or we should not finish the NIP project, I just got up and said "Mr. president, Mr. minister you know what? While you are arguing, I am going to put my own money and finish this project because I know that we are going to come back and still do this project." That is why in Kwara, we have the only NIP project that was completed because in our state, I could see the future and say we need this transmission, let's go and complete it.

So what I am saying to you is that every single one of this sector we are talking about, it looks daunting but it comes down to the same thing, it is the capacity of who is sitting on that seat as Mr. president. Today governance is also like running a business. You want to turn round that business. It is the capacity of that CEO who is sitting down there. If that CEO has the ability to turn it around he would turn it around. If that CEO doesn't have the capacity to do it, nothing is going to happen. So, to me, if you think today the old ways of doing things will take Nigeria there I am not your candidate. If you believe that, you know, we have tried the old ways and it is time for us to look, like what is happening in other part of the world, look at people who have shown capacity, who have knowledge, then definitely let us try something different.

FOREIGN POLICY AND NIGERIANS IN DIASPORA

Dr. Saraki, as I was listening to you I can see you visiting president Obama in the White House. If you have to visit Mr. Obama in the White House, what would be your foreign policy priorities and objectives? Very quickly.

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: You will find this interesting, [laughs]. You know, my foreign policy will first be what… let me get Nigeria right and get Nigeria going. You see, I have been on these many foreign trips with all these people. Nobody respects us anymore. If I go greet Obama, what am I going tell him? [laughs] I am in a country where I am not providing security. I'm in a country where I've not provided education, what am I…., I'm just going on a good trip. Let me go back to where I am relevant, let me go back to where the people really need me. When I am relevant at home, then we can sit down and talk.

So, to me, you know, the key priority now is let me fix Nigeria. I am not saying a foreign relation is not important. But it is when we have strong domestic policies that you will become relevant in this foreign terrain. You won't just go and say, hey, "I am the president of Nigeria….. and Nigeria is not what it used to be". But you know what? If am producing that we need, I'm producing that you need, I'm providing security for the West African region, I'm providing security in my own country, then I can now sit down and say look, you know what, this is what I want. So, my own is to make Nigeria strong, make Nigeria relevant in both West Africa and the Africa sub-region then I believe I can now sit down on equal table and say you know what? I want my seat on G20, I want my seat on United Nations, but you know what? Unless we do that we are just going there to go and…

[Cuts in] Can I push back a bit?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Go ahead.

The truth of the matter is, for various reasons, the Western world is very interested in Nigeria. There is the matter of crude oil. There is the matter of the trade in palm oil. These are not gonna stop because we need to get our house in order. So what will you do? What will you do in terms of your foreign policy approach?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: No, you see, you will keep your friends. Do you understand? You will keep your friends. You will make new friends; I believe that we must make new friends. For example, we can do more with Brazil. I don't think there is anything wrong with doing businesses with China if they are to our advantage, and it has value. I believe that, you know, we must make those issues.

But the point I am making to you is that those relationships, should not only be relationship that goes in one direction; there must be value in it for everyone. What I am saying is for Nigerians to begin to see the benefits of those relationships, if you look at the country that are benefiting from those bilateral agreements; it is because they start doing the right things at home. Don't get me wrong; our country will continue to play our role in Africa. We will continue to play the role with our friendly countries in the Western world that we have relationship both on areas of, for example, of security, areas of education, of health sector and areas of investing in the economy. These will continue. Right? But the point I am emphasizing is that as we do things to strengthen that foreign policy, we must quickly dwell on those issues locally, that domestically will ensure that we are talking from the position of strength or we are real partners as opposed to what we have now. As long as we keep looking for some kind of assistance, we cannot be as relevant as we should be.

Fair enough. One final question and I will leave you alone. How would you use the Farooqs of this world, the Adesanmis' and the Ikhides' and the Adekunles' in the world that are languishing in the Diaspora?

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: First of all, I know for you guys this is the first time you are encountering me and I know that before now you all have your different views. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that I am perfect or offering the best or the total best out of what Nigerians of our generation can offer, but I believe that looking at the candidates out there, I offer the best option for Nigeria.

Now, what I am saying to guys like yourself is if you believe in this project; that it can work and make Nigeria better, let us work together. I am a team player. I don't believe I know everything. That is why I have been able to work. It is not all about me. We can work together because you have talent. You have skills. That is why you are able to survive where you are. I mean you are there, you are not lobbying anybody there, or you know somebody or somebody knows you in the environment that you are. Everything is based on your ability and performance. We need to create environment so you can come back here and hold your ground and contribute. I like to surround myself with people that have ability and capacity. That is what I believe in, and I believe in the best ideas. Let me hear your own ideas. Let me us sit down and discuss those ideas because you want the thing I want. You want Nigeria to be better.

I was hoping for something a little bit more systematic, systemic. You have got a lot of resources in the Diaspora. I am not just talking about individuals in the Diaspora that could seriously make a difference in the direction Nigeria is going, and so how do you plan to tap into those resources? Many of us, quite frankly, are not coming back …………..

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Nooo! The point is, whether you are in Diaspora or you are not, or within Nigeria, the point I am making is that there are ways in each areas of interest. I have talked about education. If you have strong ideas on how we can get our primary and secondary education off the ground, great! I already got my idea, how we can improve on it, I am open to that.

I don't want to say because there are many areas of resources, but the issue that is important is that one is open to contributions on those issues that are important to all of us. It is not that I am going blank on any of those issues, I have ideas on what I believe we should do on housing, job creation, on health care, if there are people in the Diaspora that have those kind of competencies and abilities to make contributions, I am open to work with them in ensuring that we can fine-tune the best way forward.

I mean, it doesn't matter whether they are in Diaspora or they are here. But the key point I am making is Nigeria can only get better when we have all our best hands on the ground participating in the process. So that is taken for granted and that is one of my own policies. And if there're people who have done research on some of those issues, I will like to create a forum, a town hall meeting where, even during campaign one can sit down on the different sectors and discuss some of those issues.

Because at the end of the day, these policies are not meant for me but meant for the people; so the people themselves must contribute and add their own values to it.

GOVERNMENT REFORM

Okay let's wrap up. I will ask a two-pronged question on Government Reform. When you want to do all the nice things you talked about, you need to work with the civil service and the legislature. How would you reform the civil service and how would you work with the legislature in making these things happen

Let me take the government reform first. I think there are a lot of reforms going on in government. But I think the key issue about government reform is that the government should do less. If the government does less, then in a way you're reforming and you rely more on the private sector. So that you are depending less on government and some of the things government is doing, and by so doing, the inefficiencies of government is not impacting on the day-to-day lives of every individual.

But definitely also I believe that Nigerians, I have observed, I've been working in Kwara and have seen that; Nigerians are a society where you look at a leader. If the leader is upright, is keen, is committed, they just adjust to that environment. If the leader doesn't care, is not…so what I'm saying is that…as you look at those individuals, they might look bad now; or not efficient but you'll be surprised that in a different environment the same people will perform. So I don't want to make a pronouncement that you there is a great reform coming; it's to just keep on letting people know that it's all about performance.

And Let me give you an example; let me go back to a place like Kwara. When I came to Kwara, before my time, appointment of permanent secretaries was all about whom you know, and lobbying here and there. Over the past 3 years now, we have a process where people go for examination…and we don't interfere. And you know, recently when I was appointing two permanent secretaries I realized that my solicitor general is the daughter of a former Deputy Governor of an opposition party. We went through the process, it was at the swearing in that I just realized that….when I saw the former Deputy Governor.., I said what's this man doing here that people told me my solicitor general and permanent secretary is his daughter. So, what I'm saying is that if you want transparency, you can make the system work, you know, and she's working perfectly.

Another example was a lecturer that was part of the head of a union years ago -he's now a permanent secretary. So what I'm saying is that those reforms would be carried out where it will be driven by performance and excellence. I've done it, I've seen it happen at the state level, it can happen at the federal level, but if I as the president, am showing interest that ah, Farouk must be made perm sec then the whole system will not work, but if I do not get involved and insist it must strictly be done by performance, by due process, you'll find out that all these people will adjust. All the people before that used to go and lobby - now they don't lobby, they go and study because they know if they don't pass those exams, nobody is going to interfere.

The legislative is a bit trickier, I must be honest that's a bit trickier. But what I'm trying to do now, even in my campaign, because luckily majority of the people particularly in the house, are our generation, and I'm trying to engage them and say look..I don't want you to know your president after the election…… let's be part of this campaign, lets agree that these are our challenges, so don't look at yourself…it's our generation, if I become President and I don't get it right, it's our generation. So that is tricky, that one, we have to engage them, because by the principles of separation of powers, it's not as easy as the public service. And that one, there just has to be a commitment by all of us that, you know what, if we don't do this in the legislature, the government cannot work. But some of these policies that I talk about would also need the laws. If you're talking about our policies on housing, creating mortgages, if the National Assembly does not pass certain laws, those policies will not be….. So, one has to engage them and I see that as a challenge.

WRAP UP

Ok, that was the last question. What I'll like you to do finally is to just talk generally to Nigerians out there, anything you want to say to people. Finally...

DR BUKOLA SARAKI: Finally, I believe like most of us that all love this country; we all believe that this country has great potential. Unfortunately, I believe that 50 years now since independence, we have not reached our potentials.

A lot of us, particularly those in the Diaspora, who live in a more modern society – sometimes they are not proud to say they are Nigerians - they believe that the leadership in the country had let them down and the question now is how do we move forward? Do we carry on with the old ways?

I believe that my candidacy offers a new direction, offers leadership based on capacity and ability. I believe that if you look at each of the candidates and say to yourself who understands these problems of Nigeria? Who understands the solution? Who can make Nigeria better? And who has that capacity? I believe that I fit that profile. I believe that I have shown in the last few years my capacity working in a small state with little resources and able to turn it around. I believe that if given the chance to do that in Nigeria… We say Nigeria is bigger but wherever it is, it is all about leadership, whether you find yourself in your state, or you find yourself in a small company, it's leadership that'll bring success.

And I've set the key areas for Nigeria. In the area of agriculture, I came to Kwara - we have had governors here, many governors here, we've had many military administrators, I was the only one that came here and focused on agriculture as a key issue, and my policy on agriculture has brought results. Today, as I said to you, if you buy WAMCO milk some of that milk is coming from Kwara. And I believe that if we have many of these Tsonga farms scattered around the country, Nigeria will be a better place, we'll have food, water and also provide jobs.

I talked about education and also an area that we need to address, but the most important thing is it's the time for our generation. Those old ways, those old thinking, have not brought results. It's time for us to try a better way of moving the country forward, and I believe that I can provide that and I believe that with the support of Nigerians we can move the country forward.

I can give you many more examples of how I have shown cutting-edge leadership in Nigeria. For example I brought in the first ATM machine into the country many years before it became the norm in the country…

So, my rallying cry is ‘let us get it done', urgently, let us get to work and let us do what it takes to make us great again. I would like it at the end of the day when you say you're a Nigerian you look proud. I think people will tell you in Kwara in 2003, a lot of people were not proud to say they are from Kwara; today if you tell somebody…even the opposition will tell you, we may not like DR BUKOLA SARAKI, but you know what, he has made a difference here in Kwara. And I believe that I can do the same thing for Nigeria.

You might not like me now, you might have different views, but I believe I'm the kind of person that will make Nigeria better because leadership today is about capacity, result orientation and having that commitment. You might be a nice guy, you might be pleasant, but if you don't know what it takes to make things turn around it's not going to work. And we've done trial and error, we've run around with "… let's just manage", for as long we continue to manage; Nigeria is not going to change. I'm saying that there's no time to manage, it's time to see who has ability and capacity to make Nigeria work ...provide jobs and create an economy that people will come and invest in and make the country better for us.