National Life President, Afonja Descendant Union (ADU), Alhaji Abdulkarim Olola Kasum, who is a 1965 graduate of Kwame Nkrumah School of Political Science, Wuneta, Ghana, in this interview with LAYI OLANREWAJU, speaks on the reconciliation of Idi Ape community with Senator Bukola Saraki 11 years after the death of the late former Governor of Kwara State, Alhaji Muhammed Alabi Lawal, among other issues. Excerpts… You were in Ghana for some time, how did you meet Senator Saraki? Yes, I was in Ghana and his father was in Abidjan, not until I returned to Ilorin in 1973 did we meet.

Can you tell us things you know about the late Dr Olusola Saraki? When Dr Olusola Saraki came in 1973 to campaign Kwara politics and method of election changed. Many people became interested on the issue of money. Saraki by then was not so rich, but he contested as an independent candidate in 1964 and lost. In 1973, when he came back, he was fairly wealthy. In fact, he was among the richest people in Ilorin. He was brought by A.G.F. Rasaq and Babatunde Alanamu introduced him to the emir to replace Sanni Okin from Offa. Sanni Okin was a successful parliamentarian at the House of Assembly in Lagos.

They saw Saraki as a refined man that had made a lot of money either from the Biafran war or something, I don't know. Gradually, the defunct National Party Congress (NPC) came into existence. He became a foremost member of the party, standing for Ilorin province. Later, he was made a senator. Before the advent of Saraki, politics in Kwara was principle-based. For example, the Action Group (AG) propaganda was purely an issue. Saraki monetized politics in Kwara. Where do you see Kwara politics after Saraki? I am not a prophet, but where we are now there is complete rubbish on the scene. Youth unemployment, corruption, politics in Kwara needs practical approach to change things because we have lost focus. But there was a break between him and his son in 2011. What he wanted was not what Bukola wanted.

So, it is difficult to predict what will happen. What I know is that with hope, dynamism and faith we will be able to change the direction of things and Kwara will emerge more glorious after Saraki's death. What I know is that the new government in the state is trying to put things right. I don't know how long they can try and how far they can reach. One thing about Saraki is that he was not a walk-over. He didn't achieve his greatness on a platter of gold. He worked for it, he lost election in 1964 and with determination he came back. Money or not, Saraki was winning the support of Kwarans and he succeeded, he worked for his victory. What becomes the fate of opposition in Kwara politics? The opposition in Kwara is not organized. Opposition members who knew about Saraki's strategies have all gone back to the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP).

The Action Congress of Nigeria (ACN) brought a new dimension to Kwara politics, but how far they can go I cannot tell, because the result of the last election on the side of ACN was appallingly poor. ACN cannot point at any victory it scored. I don't know, maybe other parties would come. What I know is that the platform is now open for anybody to venture, because Kwara is now leaderless. Did you meet Saraki recently before his death? No, I met him long time ago; we don't have the same ideology. The last encounter I had with him, if I could remember, was when he was under house arrest during Buhari/Idiagbon regime. Ilorin people virtually abandoned Saraki, there was a time they wanted to use Oniyangi to replace him and I wrote a powerful article in The Herald. Many Saraki followers still have a copy of that paper.

In the article I challenged the system in Ilorin and how soon they are fighting their hero, and Saraki got to know about it. He then invited me to his house at Bode Thomas in Lagos. When Saraki saw me, he wept as he could not imagine how I could be on his side then. How would you assess Saraki? He spent his money to rebuild Ilorin. At that time there was shortage of water and bad roads and Saraki came to our aid, he tried. He became a leader of NPN. But why were you always antagonising each other? I had to criticize him because he was on the side of the Fulani cause, and as a leader of Afonja, a Yoruba community in Ilorin, if you are supporting somebody who does not want your existence then I had to see him as my enemy, too. But I want to thank Allah that we made up before his death. My criticising him was not borne out of personal hatred, it is based on principle.

You were one of those who paid solidarity visit to Senator Bukola Saraki, what was your mission? I have some boys who are members of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) and who wanted to pay a visit to Saraki, and since Saraki is not my enemy, I followed them. Saraki is a leader. Who are these boys? They are mostly from Idi Ape, some of them have already joined PDP; formerly they were members of the late Governor Mohammed Lawal's party, All Nigeria Peoples Party (ANPP). Where do you stand, are you now a member of PDP? No, I am a leader; in fact, I have never joined any political party. I'm still sitting on the fence watching where Nigeria is going.

I went there because, as a leader, I want to help put their house in order. They said they wanted to visit Saraki and I said well, Saraki is my friend and not my enemy, so I followed them. But, it is generally believed that the visit was to declare Idi Ape community's total support for PDP? I am not convinced and nobody told me about that. Nobody discussed joining the party with me, they just told me they were not fully integrated into the PDP and they want to prove to Saraki that most of Idi Ape people support the idea of going to a particular party. Anybody that wants to join any political party in the organisation we allow to do so, I followed them because I'm not against any party.

We are absolutely in charge of our family, Afonja Descendants Union, and we are not a political organisation. It was formed long before PDP. Our family organisation started in 1974 and we have been there since, even when Lawal came, ADU was there, so we are still intact. If anybody wants to join any political party, he is free to do so. We are not biased against any organisation, particularly, I did not go there because I'm a PDP man, I went there because I saw Bukola Saraki as a leader; he is good leader, that is all. During the visit, it was revealed that the late governor had concluded plans to return to Saraki's party before he died, can you confirm this? I don't know about that and nobody told me about it. I heard people saying so, but Lawal didn't tell me before he died.

What was your relationship with the late Governor Lawal? We were cousins, brothers. What was your last conversation with the former governor before he died? In fact, on the spur of the moment he said he was going to London, probably he might have had some words with his mother or father, but he didn't tell me anything. What did you discuss with Saraki during the visit? I prayed before the meeting started and Saraki did attend. We chose somebody to speak with Saraki on our behalf and it was a joyous occasion. Nobody regretted being there, but we didn't plan to join PDP, some people had already joined PDP, Owolabi, Rasak Lawal and others had joined PDP. I'm their leader, they told me to back them so that people would take them serious; when we went there nobody denounced his position to join PDP. We all went, talked and left.

Probably, they wanted Saraki to do something for them. Do you believe ANPP is still intact? No! No!! Lawal's party (ANPP) is no more in Kwara, that is the truth, it's no more in Kwara. I'm saying I don't belong to any party, and there are so many of us who don't belong to any party, who believe in staying out of party politics. Also, if I should tell you the truth on why they went there; they went there because they wanted to solicit pardon for our Aare. We appointed and installed an Aare in 2005, but another Aare was installed by the Emir. So, there was a clash and there was bloodshed. Not only bloodshed, a lot of people died in 2005.

The case has already ended in court, but the Aare, who we installed, has not been fully accepted by the system and people have been fighting strongly to get the right man there. I believe that was the reason for the visit. So, whose responsibility is it to appoint Aare or what is the process involved? The process is there, every family has its own way of appointing a leader. When a leader is appointed, they will carry him to the Ministry. For example, let's say Baale Ogbondoroko is going to be appointed, they will have to screen him within the family, look at his viability whether he is a correct man, that is, he would go through the process, and then bring him to the central pool, that is, the Emirate.

The Emirate will not appoint directly, it is not possible; but that was what the Emir did. So, before that time, the Emir went and appointed his in-law, because Aremu is the Emir's in-law, you know his brother married the Emir's sister. So, our people said it is not possible. The installment became a trouble. When they were taking Aremu home after his turban, the people attacked him. His orderly was killed, it was a big bloodshed. Since Aremu went to Agberere, a house built by his father, he cannot come home. Now that he is trying to come home, that is why you see all this manoeuvring going on. What is causing trouble now is who takes over? Is it a man that was put there by the people or one by the Emir?

What happened to the palace of Aare since then? The palace has been rebuilt by the government and nobody is occupying it since 2005 when the place was shattered. It is seven years now; so if anyone wants to pick one out of the two, it will cause another problem. Now, if we want peace, let's settle it forever. People believe you're always against the ruling party, is it true? No, it's not true; I'm not like that. The only thing is that I don't sleep easy when something goes wrong; I have to say it; that is all. I'm not opposing any government.